Bad batch of Instant Ocean? Alkalinity through the ROOF!!!

[JB NY]

I actually just tested my water before a water change last week. This was IO salt that was bought from Petsmart back in July.

Alk 13.6
Ca 350
Magnesium 1310

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, there is little chance that alkalinity caused immediate widespread deaths in a tank where only 10% of the water was changed. That's just not a very big increase in alkalinity. Of course, other things may be off in a bad batch of salt, as Simon indicated.

While I don't deny there may be a bad batch problem, I'm still not convinced that there really are ultra high alk batches of IO around. When you've seen as many faulty tests being reported as "chemistry" problems as I have, you become quite skeptical.

We've got a few test results, mostly using tests kits of unknown brand. Why assume the salt is off rather than the kit? Or the user? I don't mean to insult folks. I've used many test kits incorrectly myself, and I've used many that even when used correctly gave incorrect results.

Randy, would alk of 30 DKH turn the water cloudy white?

That's an interesting question. If it were carbonate alkalinity giving rise to that alkalinity reading, I'd expect precipitation of CaCO3 unless the pH were quite low. But in a really bad batch, that alkalinity might be coming from borate, phosphate, silicate, etc.

 

[MiddletonMark]

IMO, there is little chance that alkalinity caused immediate widespread deaths in a tank where only 10% of the water was changed. That's just not a very big increase in alkalinity. Of course, other things may be off in a bad batchg of salt, as Simon indicated.

I believe the original poster did a 40% water change.

Which IMO is way too much. Sure, maybe one can do that if everything [temp, salinity, Ph] are matched up just right ... but it also makes me wonder why one would do such a huge % water change ... the only reason I would change more than 15-20% would be with dead livestock or some other major problem.

Given that, I wonder if there was some sort of major problem [thus the huge water change] and that the salt just exacerbated the problem.

I know some [Flanders, others] feel that such a large water change is no big deal. I guess I'm just of the opinion that more often, smaller [10% range] changes are much less likely to have bad things happen, be less stressing on the inhabitants, and more often changes do the tank more good. Just my opinion, I'd be interested in what Randy thinks about large % water changes.

I don't hear any so-called `experts' suggesting them, so I wonder why they are being suggested as fine here. Just my opinion.

---

I also agree with Randy's statements on the Test Kits. I have 3 different Alkalinity and Ph tests ... and I don't think I've ever had them all match up to the same readings. Not to say that they all are wildly divergent every time, but just last night my Salifert Ph read 7.7, my Hagen 8.8, and my Aquarium systems 8.3. I've seen my share of bad test kits .... and without further information on which test kit, etc ... I have a minor bit of skepticism [the same I have towards my own kits/practices].

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Thomas712]

Just to give you an example of what happend to me. I use a 29 gal for my mixing tank. Visatherm heater and MJ1200 power head, which both check out fine. I cleaned the 29 with tap, just like always, let dry. Add ro, heater, and mj1200. Add salt, three days later this is what you see after draining the mixing tank.

Thomas

 

[MiddletonMark]

Wow, that's odd. Are you sure your refractometer is on?

Don't mean to be challenging you on this, it just doesn't match with my experience and looks to me [just my opinion] like it's at a really high salinity. Either that or there's something in the source water that's funky.

To be clear, I'm really sad for your loss. Also really perplexed as to why this is happening ...

 

[beerman0831]

I use a clear container to mix my salt in too but never had it look like that when it was empty.It also looks to me like your refratometer is off and the salinity is high.So sorry to hear about your loss

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe the original poster did a 40% water change.


Yes, I know but other folks reported problems with as little as 10%:

I did about a 10% water change and within minutes the snails were falling off the glass. It killed almost all of the crustations, including several acro crabs and a pistol shrimp in the corals.

 

[MiddletonMark]

So Randy, do you believe it was a bad batch of IO?

What do you think it was?

 

[Ninong]

Ok....I just looked and I've got those exact same numbers on a new 200 lb bucket.

I think you will find that everybody has those exact same numbers. Numbers under the bar code are just bar code numbers, not batch numbers.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So Randy, do you believe it was a bad batch of IO?

What do you think it was?

I don't know. If someone wants to send me some of the salt (not the water), I'll test it for alkalinity.

 

[MiddletonMark]

Thanks Randy ... hope someone takes you up on it. I'd be interested [as I use IO]

 

[hammerhead]

I have seen the water turn cloudy with the salinity to high and would not clear up after 3 days. I took half the water out and added RO water and it cleared up.

 

[Thomas712]

So Randy, do you believe it was a bad batch of IO?

What do you think it was?

I don't know. If someone wants to send me some of the salt (not the water), I'll test it for alkalinity.

Consider it done, Do I pm you with address?

Thomas

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I sent you the mailing address by PM.

 

[Thomas712]

Wow, that's odd. Are you sure your refractometer is on?

If your post was to me then I do believe that my refractometer was correct. It matched the salinity of the tank water as well. I do use an ATC refrac as well.

Thomas

 

[Thomas712]

Thanks Randy, got it. Will send tomorrow.

 

[Zoom]

I use IO for 20 years i never had any problems but i first heat the water up and i only put 50% of the salt in the 40G plastic container and i wait for it to get clear again before i add the remaining 50% it is a 500GPH pump in the container running at all the time till all the salt is clear it may take two hours to get it there.
Then i put a air stone in there for 24 hours and i'm good to go.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As an example of how test kits can fool you, check this thread from today:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1819191#post1819191

 

[Megalodon]

I only did a 25% change, dripped slowly over hours

I only did a 25% change, dripped slowly over hours

I understand what everyone is saying, but what are the chances this IS NOT a bad batch of IO? This canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t be human error. Consider these facts Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve compiled:

1. I was very upset when I first posted, just put down 40% not thinking. The bucket I mixed was 77 litres total. My sumps contain 70 litres. My tank contained 200 litres. 77 litres out of 269 litresââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ so it was a 25% water change, not 40. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve done changes this big before because I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have anything THAT sensitive yet, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seem to cause any stress on the inhabitants thus far (although youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re right, using a new salt brand for the first time is different), and I dripped the new water in over many hours.

2. Except for high phosphates and some nitrates, and the remains of tap water from when I first set up my tank, my tank inhabitants were doing absolutely great until the very second I used this new salt. Feather duster was growing, tang was crazy and brightest yellow Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve ever seen, shrimp bouncing off the walls, coralline starting to sprout, royal gramma and cardinal very active and healthy. I just wanted to refresh the water before adding my first coral.

3. The LFS, J&L Aquatics, is the mother of all saltwater specialty stores in all of BC, and shouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t even be called an LFS. They used two different test kits to verify their high results and also checked the expiry datesââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ the owner was skeptical at first too. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll phoned them tomorrow for the brand, but I know it was a high-end brand, they said. It was using two of their best test kits, the same test kits which show all their other water and salt as being FINE. My same test kit shows my new salt as being FINE, just as it always has.

4. My cardinal went from belly-up to perfectly fine after netting it and plunking it straight into the new salt mix I quickly did up. The new water was with the new salt (alk. 4ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ which is too low now), tap water, and only a little mixing timeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and it still saved it. Feather duster even started moving around and was resuscitated after plunking straight into the new water. The yellow tang regained its energy and colour immediately after doing a 90% water change in the main tank with the new water. Obviously, a 25%, or a 40% water change couldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have caused the problem the first time, when a 90% ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œsloppyââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ water change corrected the problem the second time. The problem could have only been with the first bucket of salt.

5. The new water wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t cloudyââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ the bad salt water was cloudy. It also left an extremely thick coating of a white chalky substance on the side of the mixing bucket. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m assuming alkalinity wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t the only thing off.

6. The LR that Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m curing, it was bought from the same place, from a tank using the exact same salt. I got the bad salt bucket at the same time. Put the LR in the new IO salt, tested salinity and temperature, threw in a heater and powerhead, and weeks later Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m noticing bleaching and severe die-off. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s been two weeks now and the smell is worse than before.

7. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve read this forum from beginning to end and I know what Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m doing.

Thanks for everyones support. I'm sure this will be proven in short time.

Randy, could you PM me with your mailing address? I would be more than happy to mail you a sample. How many cups would you like?

Anyone else know of a good place to send it to other than Aquarium Systems and Randy? Maybe Dr. Ron?

:fish2: :fish1: :fish2: :fish1: :fish2: :fish1: :fish2: :fish1: :fish2: :fish2:

 

[gooch]

Anyone think about testing it for copper? If inverts are dropping like that I would supect that.

gooch