Randy, could you PM me with your mailing address?
Sure.
Sure.
Bad batch of Instant Ocean? Alkalinity through the ROOF!!!
- Thread starter Megalodon
- Start date
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
Good point Gooch. I'm sure Randy's going to test the crap out of it.
I guess it's a good lesson too ... if anything seems `funny' when you mix it up [extra precipitate, chalkiness, etc] you should test the water before adding. Kind of the `if it walks and quacks unlike the duck you're used to, it might not be a duck!' test.
I'd guess this should apply to ANY salt, too.
I'm really glad Megalodon that you don't take us as being combative or negative in a personal way. We're just trying to logic it out, and human error is the easiest idea to believe. The more you post, the more I think it wasn't that.
And my congratulations on your wise and quick actions to save your livestock. Very well done!
I guess it's a good lesson too ... if anything seems `funny' when you mix it up [extra precipitate, chalkiness, etc] you should test the water before adding. Kind of the `if it walks and quacks unlike the duck you're used to, it might not be a duck!' test.
I'd guess this should apply to ANY salt, too.
I'm really glad Megalodon that you don't take us as being combative or negative in a personal way. We're just trying to logic it out, and human error is the easiest idea to believe. The more you post, the more I think it wasn't that.
And my congratulations on your wise and quick actions to save your livestock. Very well done!
5. The new water wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t cloudyââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ the bad salt water was cloudy. It also left an extremely thick coating of a white chalky substance on the side of the mixing bucket. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m assuming alkalinity wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t the only thing off.
Oh, so the newly mixed water was cloudy before you added it? I thought you were sying that you added the new water to the tank, and then the water turned cloudy.
Put the LR in the new IO salt, tested salinity and temperature, threw in a heater and powerhead, and weeks later Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m noticing bleaching and severe die-off. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s been two weeks now and the smell is worse than before.
Was the water cloudy before you placed your L/R in it?
Steve
Oh, so the newly mixed water was cloudy before you added it? I thought you were sying that you added the new water to the tank, and then the water turned cloudy.
Put the LR in the new IO salt, tested salinity and temperature, threw in a heater and powerhead, and weeks later Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m noticing bleaching and severe die-off. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s been two weeks now and the smell is worse than before.
Was the water cloudy before you placed your L/R in it?
Steve
Megalodon
Clowning Around
Gooch, my brand-new SeaTest copper tester shows no copper. I don't know about the salt itself, but there's no chance any pollutants could have got into the system... I'm way too careful with that. Now the salt... it's anyones guess at this point what else could be wrong.
Randy, consider it mailed. Thanks!
Mark, thanks for your understanding. I'm confident Randy will prove that I am no dummy. But you're right, next time new water is that cloudy, I'll test the hell out of it. In fact, I'm going to do that from now on anyway. Today I'm off to buy the best of every single test kit there is. I don't trust salt anymore.
Pices69, yes, the smaller bar code has the number 051378014014. That's the only other number I can find.
SPC, yes, the water was cloudy well before adding it to the tank and to the LR. I was assured ten-times over that was normal so I talked myself into not worrying about it... a mistake.
Now to get all mushy: A big thanks to everyone. Not only do you all provide advice and information, you also give me "shoulders to cry on" so to speak. None of my other friends were too interested in hearing me vent... which is very important for humans when they're upset... everyone needs to feel like they're being listened to... and I feel that here.
Randy, consider it mailed. Thanks!
Mark, thanks for your understanding. I'm confident Randy will prove that I am no dummy. But you're right, next time new water is that cloudy, I'll test the hell out of it. In fact, I'm going to do that from now on anyway. Today I'm off to buy the best of every single test kit there is. I don't trust salt anymore.
Pices69, yes, the smaller bar code has the number 051378014014. That's the only other number I can find.
SPC, yes, the water was cloudy well before adding it to the tank and to the LR. I was assured ten-times over that was normal so I talked myself into not worrying about it... a mistake.
Now to get all mushy: A big thanks to everyone. Not only do you all provide advice and information, you also give me "shoulders to cry on" so to speak. None of my other friends were too interested in hearing me vent... which is very important for humans when they're upset... everyone needs to feel like they're being listened to... and I feel that here.
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Megalodon - First thing I thought of was copper as well, put a polyfilter in to see if it would turn blue and it did not, didn't have a copper test kit available.
Been through the same thing you have now and I don't mind you venting at all.
Did your mix look like the pic that I posted of my 29 mixing tank?
Randy - I'll add my thanks as well, oh and I had them send it comfirmation, sorry, getting to be a habit when I send things USPS. Sending a 1/2 cup.
Thomas
Been through the same thing you have now and I don't mind you venting at all.
Did your mix look like the pic that I posted of my 29 mixing tank?
Randy - I'll add my thanks as well, oh and I had them send it comfirmation, sorry, getting to be a habit when I send things USPS. Sending a 1/2 cup.
Thomas
Ninong - Was unable to contact you in the same way.
You are correct on the person that I contacted, unfortunatly he was unable or unwilling, to give me a direct answer to my test results.
He e mailed me this answer:
"Our lab has reported that they do not know what to make of this sample, as something is preventing us from obtaining test rusults. Perhaps the manufacturer of the product can give you better insight"
I believe that he did not want himself or the company to be liable for anything. Lets say it was a diplomatic, safe answer. I will respect the fact that he did not want his name or company to be mentioned. Still leaves me chomping at the bit to find out what happend, can't tell me a chemist could not get test results.
Thomas
You are correct on the person that I contacted, unfortunatly he was unable or unwilling, to give me a direct answer to my test results.
He e mailed me this answer:
"Our lab has reported that they do not know what to make of this sample, as something is preventing us from obtaining test rusults. Perhaps the manufacturer of the product can give you better insight"
I believe that he did not want himself or the company to be liable for anything. Lets say it was a diplomatic, safe answer. I will respect the fact that he did not want his name or company to be mentioned. Still leaves me chomping at the bit to find out what happend, can't tell me a chemist could not get test results.
Thomas
Thomas712 said:
Well that's certainly understandable. I'm sure Randy will be able to figure out what's up. At least he can verify the alkalinity. I'm not sure if he can quantify anything such as the montmorillonite clay that others have reported on this board as being added to that brand.
If Randy does find that the alkalinity is as high as what J&L Aquatics found when they tested Megalodon's sample (30 dKH), I'm sure he can call Tim Hovanec for comment. Then he can ask him if they actually are adding clay and, if so, why. He might also ask him if they have finished their sea urchin larvae studies yet. We would all like to know how those turned out. I believe they ran them four months ago.
First , I am sorry for your lost but I have to add that I have been using IO for 15 years and I use a lot of it I own a salt water fish store and have for years we not only use IO but sell hundreds of gallons of Ro mixed with salt a month we go thru lots of buckets and bags I have never had this problem nor have any of my customers. I have seen foaming and cloudiness when mixing but only when adding water to salt in a bucket not the other way around and that was back in the day when we used tap water to mix salt water and that was only until the salinity was at normal levels now we mix in large ro vats adding salt cups at a time while mixing with a large power head no foaming, not cloudy never had an alk problem. I wouldn't say that a bucket could'nt be contaminated but it's just never happened to me and I use a LOT of salt was the bucket sealed when you opened it? I have seen the things happen that you describe but it was because of salinity shock and or ph shock I'll be keeping my eye on this and would like to know the outcome because I have a lot of fish and customers depending on me and if there it an issue with IO I need to know about it and quick
Lynda
Lynda
Megalodon
Clowning Around
I plan on telling everyone the outcome of this as soon as we find out, don't worry. I know, it's a scary thing when we have so much riding on the quality of our salt. Apparently Aquarium Systems made a change to their "recipe" lately, so who knows. It's my fear this company may try saying the salt had been tampered with, although there's no way it could of been.
happyturtle
New member
i got some advice for all you I/O lovers : TROPIC MARIN !!!!!
this would never happen with their salt..........
this would never happen with their salt..........
I don't see how a lab can fail to get an alkalinity measurement. You add acid until the pH hits 4. Short of the sample exploding, it seems hard to have "something is preventing us from obtaining test results".
Anyway, the one thing that I am sure of is that I will be able to give you some sort of answer about alkalinity
Here's a thought:
Was the water that you tested for alkalinity cloudy? If it had substantial calcium or magnesium carbonate in it, then a normal alkalinity test kit can give a falsely high reading because the solids will dissolve as the pH is dropped.
Anyway, the one thing that I am sure of is that I will be able to give you some sort of answer about alkalinity
Here's a thought:
Was the water that you tested for alkalinity cloudy? If it had substantial calcium or magnesium carbonate in it, then a normal alkalinity test kit can give a falsely high reading because the solids will dissolve as the pH is dropped.
i got some advice for all you I/O lovers : TROPIC MARIN !!!!!
this would never happen with their salt
What is it that you like about Tropic Marin?
this would never happen with their salt
What is it that you like about Tropic Marin?
Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Hmmm, yes it was cloudy. Remember though that this sample that we could not test the alkalinity on, (because salifert would not go up that high) was from a three day aged water change that was introduced into the main aquaium. 20 gal to a 90 gal tank with roughly 5 gallons in sump.
Make any difference?
Thomas
Megalodon
Clowning Around
Yes, the mixed water was very cloudy.
Yes, the mixed water was very cloudy.
The mix was cloudy, it made my tank cloudy, and the test batch I did was cloudy. There were no white "floaties" in the water, but the mixing bucket developed a very thick chalky coating all over.
J&Ls said they used a Salifert test kit. I could see that their test batch was overly cloudy as well when they first mixed it. My test kit was a cheap Wardley test kit but it was always accurate with me before. They said the alkalinity reading was off the scale too but maybe he gave up after 35 or so.
Whatever happened with magnesium or calcium, something(s), or maybe the lack of something(s), ravaged my tank in that bad bucket of salt... something different it did not share with the newer good bucket of salt I got from J&Ls afterwards. The potential for disaster is enormous.
I sure hope Randy can see what's wrong so Aquarium Systems can get their act together. My sample should be to you by Monday. Thanks.
:rollface:
Yes, the mixed water was very cloudy.
The mix was cloudy, it made my tank cloudy, and the test batch I did was cloudy. There were no white "floaties" in the water, but the mixing bucket developed a very thick chalky coating all over.
J&Ls said they used a Salifert test kit. I could see that their test batch was overly cloudy as well when they first mixed it. My test kit was a cheap Wardley test kit but it was always accurate with me before. They said the alkalinity reading was off the scale too but maybe he gave up after 35 or so.
Whatever happened with magnesium or calcium, something(s), or maybe the lack of something(s), ravaged my tank in that bad bucket of salt... something different it did not share with the newer good bucket of salt I got from J&Ls afterwards. The potential for disaster is enormous.
I sure hope Randy can see what's wrong so Aquarium Systems can get their act together. My sample should be to you by Monday. Thanks.
:rollface:
Randy,
Do you remember this exchange in a thread you started 3/7/03 in The Reef Chemistry forum entitled "Comment on Copper Determinations:"
Randy: "I noticed today that my fresh salt water container has loads of solid stuck to the sides." [You were mixing Instant Ocean to test it for copper.]
Boomer: "I would guess so, being as I have mentioned it here on two occasions. That stuff is usually the clay mineral Montmorillonite and clays as you know, are great ion exchangers. Montmorillonite is a strong absorbent of minerals, including heavy metals and other impurities and toxins. It is used as a carrier & binder/conversation with Tom Frakes AS, IO."
"Yes, there are master batches. Each master is a little different. AS, IO has one of the best mixers there is. I will look for an old SeaScope paper that has a short discussion on batch making by AS, IO."
The mineral Montmorillonite: http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/montmori/montmori.htm
Chemistry: (Na, Ca)(Al, Mg)6(Si4O10)3(OH)6 - nH2O, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminum Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide
Is it possible that somehow there was an excess of Montmorillonite in the boxes of salt mix that Megalodon and Thomas712 used?
IF that is a possibility, I think it would account for the extremely high alkalinity readings if my limited knowledge of chemistry is correct.
Just something I was wondering about.
Do you remember this exchange in a thread you started 3/7/03 in The Reef Chemistry forum entitled "Comment on Copper Determinations:"
Randy: "I noticed today that my fresh salt water container has loads of solid stuck to the sides." [You were mixing Instant Ocean to test it for copper.]
Boomer: "I would guess so, being as I have mentioned it here on two occasions. That stuff is usually the clay mineral Montmorillonite and clays as you know, are great ion exchangers. Montmorillonite is a strong absorbent of minerals, including heavy metals and other impurities and toxins. It is used as a carrier & binder/conversation with Tom Frakes AS, IO."
"Yes, there are master batches. Each master is a little different. AS, IO has one of the best mixers there is. I will look for an old SeaScope paper that has a short discussion on batch making by AS, IO."
The mineral Montmorillonite: http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/montmori/montmori.htm
Chemistry: (Na, Ca)(Al, Mg)6(Si4O10)3(OH)6 - nH2O, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminum Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide
Is it possible that somehow there was an excess of Montmorillonite in the boxes of salt mix that Megalodon and Thomas712 used?
IF that is a possibility, I think it would account for the extremely high alkalinity readings if my limited knowledge of chemistry is correct.
Just something I was wondering about.
I don't know if it is important or not, but alkalinity tests can be fooled by solids. I ran into the same issue in trying to track the effect on alkalinity of adding calcium carbonate supplements like Aragamight to tank water. The fine particles will bloat the alkalinity reading tremendously, giving a false sense of what the supplement is actually adding to the water.
Now, that doesn't explain where the solids might have come from, and the asnwer still could be excessive bicarbonate or carbonate salts in solution.
FWIW, did either of you measure the pH of the ASW?
Now, that doesn't explain where the solids might have come from, and the asnwer still could be excessive bicarbonate or carbonate salts in solution.
FWIW, did either of you measure the pH of the ASW?
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