Bad batch of Instant Ocean? Alkalinity through the ROOF!!!

I don't think it will got that far, I for one won't waste my time sending it back in....I feel their track record speaks for itself. I have been using this for a long time and never had a problem. I for one will don't have a problem with IO and if they did recall the salt it would just lead to a price increase and We as reefers would end up paying in the long run...My .02.
 
I didn't propose a situation where we'd all waste our the time sending our salt back to the factory. Randy hasn't even received my salt sample to test yet, so I shouldn't be blabbing my mouth prematurely.

I don't have a problem with IO at all either... in fact I'm happy with my new bucket of IO salt and all my Aquarium Systems test kits... I'd never send my salt back now that I know it's good. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not even sending this bad salt back in because the LFS already gave me a good free bucket of salt.

I just think, like I said, If ENOUGH people come forward with problems, then salt on the shelves should be replaced with newer batches until the problem is resolved.

I personally think it's unacceptable that people's tanks are crashing randomly because of a brand people have perhaps become too complacent in trusting. But Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll admit this has become a matter of principle for meââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ I see the potential disaster that is awaiting in some bucket somewhere.
 
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I have just been reading this post as I have not had the oportunity to get on for the past few weeks.
A while back I posted a thread asking Randy about consistantly high alk readings ranging anywhere between 12 and 24dkh.I got most of the standard answers about miss readings etc...so now have about umteen test kits,which all gave more or less the same readings.The dkh readings seemed to have increased over the past several weeks....and guess what I have been using for water changes.IO of course and they are in bags,of which I still have about 5 left.
I have also had quite a few losses most of which did not really crash immediately.
My tank is due for a water change which I was planning on doing this weekend.I will go out tommorrow and purchase an alternate brand of salt and hopefully I will be able to get to the bottom of this problem.
The results of all the various tests should be interesting.
 
I would suggest you open another bag of IO, Use ro/di water, and make a new bucket.
I ran my powerhead for 24 hours mixing the IO. I then poured the contents into another bucket and watched for chalk residue in the mixing bucket as it dried. I also checked alk and all the other testable levels. My new bag from the same lfs is ok. I was told it all came in the same day. I am still worried about the large water change that initially caused my crabs to be lethargic and die. I will be double checking levels before I take this for granted again. I have used IO salt for over 10 years without a problem. I wonder how many other companies have this kind of track record?
John
 
The need to dismiss this is odd.?.......I am a store owner......I too had some bad Bags of IO about six month ago.........while mixing the daily store use water.{the same process each and evey day }......Rest assured thses were bad batches ......pasty white cream on top of the water is what I expect in the sink from my shaving cream..........not RO mixed synthetic sea water.......Yet we have been using IO every day since then ......and six bags a day seven days a week with no reoccurrences.........yet it is troubling to see that something may have happened at the plant once more?
 
Kalkbreath said:
The need to dismiss this is odd.?.......I am a store owner......I too had some bad Bags of IO about six month ago.........while mixing the daily store use water.{the same process each and evey day }......Rest assured thses were bad batches ......pasty white cream on top of the water is what I expect in the sink from my shaving cream..........not RO mixed synthetic sea water.......Yet we have been using IO every day since then ......and six bags a day seven days a week with no reoccurrences.........

Maybe he is using salt from that same batch? I'm sure at least some vendors/wholesalers keep it around for a period of time. Maybe it is two bad batches, maybe it is just one. Hard to tell, IMO.

Megalodon said:
If enough people come forward and complain maybe Aquarium Systems should recall their salt.

Sheesh, this is starting to sound like the bash IO thread.

I don't know if you read about the transition of many folks from IO to Crystal Seas this last summer, but evidently not every salt is without issues. That transition cost a number of people SPS colonies.

Never mind folks problems with Red Sea salt which have been documented.

Frankly, getting too far off the handle with any of these IMO is a bit much. If the salt mixes up and looks totally abnormal - any salt mix - I would think that should send off alarm bells and suggest testing.

If my tank looked like that one morning - I'd test it. Hell, if my tapwater looked like that, I'd test that too. If my Ro/Di water came out like that - I'd test it.

It's obvious from everyone's posts that these problematic episodes all visually looked and acted different than `normal' IO mixing. Sounds like an easy method of watching for it - maybe not totally scientific, but every bad case here mentions that - something that most folks have never seen.

Seems like an easy visual test ...
 
Just my 2c worth. I THINK the bar code is the product code (i.e. the identifier that the manufacturer uses for their products to distinguish one from the other). I could be wrong in this case but in my experience in the food industry typically batch codes are alpha-numeric and contain date, batch, machine, and manufacturing plant identifiers (if they make in more than one location).
Alan
 
i have to agree with MiddletonMark, if you mix new salt with your water and it looks funny.................use a little common sense and check it. been using IO so long i cant remember the first time i used it, and have never had a problem.

personaly i'd have thought they would make a bad batch many times. its only human to error. but these guy's/gal's who make IO are on top of it 99.9% of the time.

keep up the good work.

kc
 
OK, I got the sample from Thomas (Thomas 712) yesterday and tested it today.

Before I give any results, let me be clear about a few things. I can only vouch for things that I did myself. So I will state that the sample that I received has the results and interpretation that I'm giving below to the best of my ability.

But folks should be clear that I am not making any claims about Instant Ocean salt (at least at this point). Without any insult intended to Thomas, I do not know him, and more importantly, I do not know where the sample actually came from. It might be a bad batch of IO. Or it might be something else. Maybe it was adulterated (by him or someone else). It could be just about anything, for any number of reasons. Stuff like that does happen.

OK, with that disclaimer aside, here's what I found:

I tested pH with my just calibrated pH meter. Alkalinity was measured with a Salifert test that I had recently confirmed was approximately correct using alkalinity titrations with a pH meter and commercial standard acid solutions.

I mixed up the salt that Thomas sent in a clear glass jar that had been rinsed with RO/DI water. The water was added to the jar and the conductivity was measured to be about 1 uS/cm. I added the salt and stirred it for a few minutes using the conductivity probe. I kept adding salt until I reached 53 mS/cm (35 ppt). This took about 3-5 minutes. At the end of that time, the solution was fairly clear, with a few solid salt crystals on the bottom.

Interestingly, the water then began to cloud up. It got worse and worse. Eventually if was very cloudy (not quite skim milk, but on its way to that).

I did the exact same thing with a batch of IO that I had bought about 3 weeks ago at a local store. It mixed up clear, and stayed clear.

I measured the alkalinity in my tank water and found 3.3 meq/L (9.2 dKH).

I measured the alkalinity in the fresh IO that I bought and found 3.2 meq/L (9 dKH).

I measured the alkalinity in the salt sent by Thomas (using the cloudy solution without any filtration) and I found a whopping 34 meq/L (95 dKH). Interestingly, the cloudiness went away during the alkalinity titration (as one would expect for a salt like calcium or magnesium carbonate).

I monitored the pH of the solution as it clouded. I do not want to put too much emphasis on exact pH numbers because the precipitating CaCO3 may well have gotton onto the probe tip. Nevertheless, the pH was dropping, from about 8 when mixed to 7.77 to 7.53 to 7.37.

The solution made from IO that I bought did not drop in pH, or cloud up.

I made up an entirely new test solution with the Thomas material, using the jar that I had used for my Instant Ocean. Again, it started clear at about pH 8. I could take the pH probe back and forth between the clear second batch of Thomas material and the older clouded Thomas material, and the pH difference was more than 0.5 units. The second Thomas sample clouded up after about 10 minutes. I've not measured the pH again because I broke the glass tip stirring with the pH probe.

So, my conclusion based on these various observations is that:

1. The material is clearly not similar to IO that I bought myself.
2. The material is clearly unsuitable for use in an aquarium.
3. It is most likely that the material has too much in the way of bicarbonate salts in it (maybe carbonate too).
4. When mixed and allowed to sit for a few minutes, calcium and magnesium carbonate likely precipitate from solution, lowering the pH.

If I had opened a container of IO and got these results, I would be very angry. I would complain to customer service, and point out that a replacement bucket isn't going to make everything better (though it is probably all you will get). I would also point out that they'd better get their act together, or the reputation of IO will be rapidly diminishing as these results are already being discussed on the 40,000 member reefcentral board. (Actually, if it were me, I'd write an article on it, but until more folks find the problem, or it happens to me, I likely won't).
 
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Whoa!

Those are some numbers.

Thanks to Thomas and Randy for taking this all a set further. At least it ends some of the speculation that tends to run amuck so quickly.

I think it will be interesting if there will be any feedback from Aquarium Systems regarding the situation.

Thanks again Randy and Thomas and to Megalodon for bringing it to so many hobbiest's attention.
 
Thanks for the straight-up writeup Randy.

We now have a start to see if there are future problems or if this occurs more than once or twice.

And Randy, thanks for the community service to all of us. Your fair, detailed writeup is what this all needed.
 
Re: It is defective!

Re: It is defective!

Megalodon said:
OK, just talked to J&L Aquatics, the LFS. Apparently all their IO buckets have the same batch number. My new bucket, which is fine and is from the same batch, I think is 10051378014011 (at least that's the number under the large barcode).

They have the sample of salt put aside. They said I can come pick up the bucket for testing purposes... so basically they're being good in the sense that they're giving me a free bucket of salt, albiet a defective bucket of salt.

But I guess for liability purposes, when I flat out asked them if they had defective IO salt, they said, "All I can confirm is that the salt we tested had really right alkalinity."

No other bucket from there apparently has been a problem. Even the new bucket I got from them, the same "batch", was perfect.

I'll let you know what Aquarium Systems has to say.

But I'm worried what else could be inconsistant in our salt mixes than just that.


Went back to the lfs that I bought the IO from today and I told them about my IO problem. I ask them if they can test the IO and confirm it for me but they didn't have an alkalinity test. Then they said, "Alkalinity is not important". I got so mad :mad2: . They should of at least give me another bucket or refund my money. I been using IO ever since I started this hobby and never did have a problem untill now. Didn't want to make a big scene, so I just left knowing I will never go back there again.
 
Re: Re: It is defective!

Re: Re: It is defective!

spham said:
Didn't want to make a big scene, so I just left knowing I will never go back there again.

I ment the lsf not IO. I understand every company makes mistake. The only question I have is, will IO fix their mistake.
 
I won't change. If I mix up some salt and I see something that concerns me I wont use it. So far I have only seen 2 or 3 bad bags or buckets out of thousands.
 
Randy, nice job and thank you!

I was surprised more than anything else not about the batch but where this was happening:

Michigan
Vancouver
Texas

At least so far, but you would think that given the type of problems these folks have had that we would hear many more complaints than what we have.

Interestingly enough, I purchased my IO salt at about the same time Megalodon did, and at the same store yet have had no problems....strange indeed!

Is there any chance that something like this could have been caused by a temporary environmental factor? Either in shipping or at the company (i.e. packaging), that could account for such randomness?

Good luck to all those with problems, and thank for bringing this to everyone's attention. I do believe in the company's reputation and hope that it will not cause too many problems.
By the same token, problems occur to EVERY company, and it's how they resolve those issues that define them as both individuals and as an organization.

Rob
 
Sheesh, this is starting to sound like the bash IO thread.

Sorry, what would you have me do differently? Think about this from my perspective. I understand there are many people who are complacently loyal to IO, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut. I am exercising all fairness when doing so too.

Randy will get my sample soon and I think he'll find the same results. I didn't do that thorough of testing that he did by far, nor am I a chemist, but his findings would explain exactly why I saw and experienced what I did.

Thanks Randy for your help.

I think another reason that there isn't a whole heck of a lot more people coming forward is because out of all the IO users in the world, how many of them have used this message board in the last week to see this thread or otherwise?

I understand too some must state a disclaimer for legality purposes, but I think we all know this can't be anything other than defective...

Spham, yeah, my LFS is good. Even if they didn't replace the salt I might still go back to them just because their prices are so much better and they actually know how things work there.
 
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Megalodon said:
Well it seems there's a growing chorus of people disatisfied with cloudy, chalky, alkaline, killer Instant Ocean salt. Improved formula I think not.

Interestnig thread.

I use IO also, and would be suspicious if it looked strange when I mixed it. I would not put it in my tank.

I will be watching mine closer now.

Still nothing on a batch number for the effected salt?
 
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