Banggai Cardinalfish an endangered species

[whatcaneyedo]

I was shocked to hear that this fish is endangered as I see them for sale all of the time so I felt I needed to share this information in hopes that I'd reach at least some people with its message. Heres the link on The World Conservation Union's website

http://www.iucnredlist.org/info/gallery2007#home5

 

[JetCat USA]

ahh thats some tree hugger's BS, there are so many of them that are tank bread/raised that wild harvesting has been drastically reduced.

if you do the math with the numbers they give in that artical, in the wild it comes down to a pair every 300sq/ft of natural habitat, it's difficult to keep them packed that closely in an aquarium once they reach maturity and pair off, I'm sure they fight just as bad in nature and if it weren't for hobby collecting fewer and fewer babies would make it to maturity.

Tank Bread, Tank Born, Tank Raised:

 

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10755212#post10755212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JetCat USA
ahh thats some tree hugger's BS, there are so many of them that are tank bread/raised that wild harvesting has been drastically reduced.

I disagree. There's still a huge amount of wild-collection that goes on with them. Even on this board, which, I would argue, has the resources to put people ahead of the average hobbyist for knowledge of this topic, there are still a ton of people asking questions about their wild-caught banggai. These guys were pretty near endangered when they were first discovered.

Remember, they only naturally occur around one island in the world. They have been growing in number at other sites, as they've been transplanted to easier collection areas than Banggai. Of course, this carries it's own set of problems as they displace other fishes.

Dave

 

[greenbean36191]

There is evidence that more juveniles are surviving, but the fact still remains that the total population is dropping dramatically. A shift in age structure can have a major impact on fecundity. In any event, an 89% loss in about 10 years is HUGE ecologically. That's on par with the loss of A. palmata in the Caribbean, which I think most people regard as a real problem rather than some environmentalist BS.

One of the studies those numbers are based on was done as recently as 2 years ago and only estimates that the number of fish being collected has increased, not decreased. Even then, all of the estimates are based only on the number of fish that actually survive to be sold at two ports. Any dead fish or fish sold elsewhere aren't even factored in, so the estimates of 600,000 (which come from a few different researchers working independently) are considered the minimum number being collected each year.

 

[Fishfirst]

Almost ALL the fish you see at an lfs are wild caught, at least around here that is all you can get.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10755212#post10755212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JetCat USA
ahh thats some tree hugger's BS, there are so many of them that are tank bread/raised that wild harvesting has been drastically reduced.

Unfortunately that is far from true. While aquacultured are available, it's a mere drop in a bucket compared to the wild caught. Something that is obvious from perusing any wholesaler's stock list. Plenty of wild caught Bangaii's, but rarely if ever do aquacultured ever appear on a stock list.

 

[GreshamH]

To further complicate the issue, they're not great shippers. It wouldn't alarm me if the collective DOA/DAA was above 30% for exports!!!! I've been at facilities and seen routinelly 50% collective DOA/DAA and not one blinked an eye. CB ship FAR better and make far better pets. I appluad the red listing and only hope this effects the CITES standing of this animal.

 

[billsreef]

Interestingly, back when they were new to the trade and wholesaling for $25 or more, they came in and held up great. Now that they show up in droves wholesaling for under $5, they mostly die.

 

[GreshamH]

Totally right. I've always thought this trade sells most livestock far too cheap and if prices where higher, many would value the life that much more. Before some one says it, of course there would be those that still didn't care and would blow wads of cash can kill an army.

7 days in the same bag does wonders to a fishes health, regardless of daily changes on the long boats.

 

[billsreef]

I couldn't agree more. Damsels are good case in point too. They are dirt cheap and typically arrive in very poor condition with a high rate of disease, despite once being the indestructible fish of steel.

 

[mfp1016]

I'm not sure how you all are so factually stating where your LFS' fish come from. I think we've all heard many different tales of BS coming from the LFS' mouth, why would this be any different? I'm not taking sides, just saying LFS will say yes to just about any question you ask them....

 

[GreshamH]

Because several of us in this thread have worked the wholesale side for many many years We know where the fish came from as we did the paperwork, sent the money and many times worked hand in hand with the collectors/exporter.

It's no mystery that over 90% of this trade is wild caught, some say as high as 98%. US Fish and Wildlife Service has a warehouse full of just this type of information. TRAFFIC has done many reports on this as have many other agencies.

 

[Hormigaquatica]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10796761#post10796761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mfp1016
I'm not sure how you all are so factually stating where your LFS' fish come from. I think we've all heard many different tales of BS coming from the LFS' mouth, why would this be any different? I'm not taking sides, just saying LFS will say yes to just about any question you ask them....

Well, many people on these boards are more than casual hobbiests; a lot of us have actually put a lot of time in this industry, from a number of different positions. And besides, not all LFS employees are mindless idiots, but thats a different thread

That aside, the decision to list these animals on the Red List did not involve the 'word' of some LFS; it is based on observable trends in wild populations of these animals. To be honest, Kauderni Cardinals arent really collected for any other reason- not for food, not for curio, not for any reason beyond the aquarium trade; we really have ourselves to blame for this one, whether certain people are willing to take responsibility for it or not. When you have an animal that is wildly popular, inexpensive, easily accessible, and found in a very limited environmental range, its not difficult to see and understand that large scale harvesting can quickly lead to the destruction of that population.

For those who havent looked at the list in depth, it should als be noted that 2 other popular aquarium animals were added to the Red List this year: Saddle/Bumblebee Groupers and Panther Groupers (in addition to a large number of listed animals from previous years). It should also be noted that the Red List is NOT a legal document, and can not prohibit the exploitation of a species. It is simply an observation and recommendation, albeit one that many governments use to create their own environmental laws. Meaning, we still need to police ourselves with these species, as they have NO formal protection yet. Its about personal responsibility a control.

 

[FMarini]

Hear-hear- great points and discussion
there is little treehugging alone the lines of this fish. its clearly introuble.

the Redlist recommendation has NO impact on collection of this fish. AS mentioned it is a recommendation, not a legal document, if the CITESII proposal was granted (it was rejected-primarily due to political reasons) then the import of this fish were have slowed.

Thats said, captive bred banggais make NO impact on reducing wild harvests. Appprox 700,000 BC are harvested annually, the current estimate at total population is a little under 2million. A recent cenus (2006) showed not only a dramtic reduction in the number of fish, but also in the distribution of these fish. Out of 60 odd sites visited IIRC more than 20 sites were deviod of banggais.

it would be one thing if this fish were fecund, it isn't-- w/ an average reproductin rate is 25 fry (compared to 200 fry for a clownfish), this fish population slowly increases. Case in point, a small population of banggai was transplanted into the lembeh straits as a dive attraction (2001), inital census was alittle over 100 adults, 6 yrs later there are approx 1000 adults.

AS bill mentioned back in the late 90s thee fish shipped well and were very hardy, today for whatever reason the WC banggais of today are sickly, w/ mortalites much higher than cited by Gresham, many LFS refuse to order then because of repeated loss.

Anyway these fish are now being looked at as a commerical fish, however its captive production presents a problem, you need 8 fold more broodstock to produce equal amounts of fry (again compared to Nemo), and unfortunately males and fry require more space, so commerical firms are factoring in space and additional broodstock into the production costs, making these fish expensive at the wholesale.
Currently ORA is only selling very few male (if at all) as most male BC produced are being kept/used as broodstock

The question i have --will the average hobbyist, and LFS pay more for this CB/CR fish, when WC banggai card are under $5 wholesale. AS of today the answer appears as a NO

 

[roblack]

I love trees and reefs, and am proud to hug trees. Maybe someone needs a hug?

 

[ActinopteryGuy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10796761#post10796761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mfp1016
I'm not sure how you all are so factually stating where your LFS' fish come from. I think we've all heard many different tales of BS coming from the LFS' mouth, why would this be any different? I'm not taking sides, just saying LFS will say yes to just about any question you ask them....

I work at a LFS and know that the one I work at is mostly wild caught for fish. Sadly w/o regulation most LFS owners still buy wild even when tank raised or bred is an option for cost. I knew the bangaii was in trouble, but this is the first I have heard of it making the RED LIST. I currently own a pair of wild bangaiis and hope to breed them to help offset their harvest, but I will advise my boss and customers to avoid them from now on.

 

[projectmayhem16]

I posted this in another thread but this looks like a good place to post as well, concerning wild capture of marine fish.

http://www.unep-wcmc.org/resources/publications/UNEP_WCMC_bio_series/17.htm

 

[GreshamH]

While I support the intentions behind that report, I have several problems with it (as discussed in depth on RDO's IBTH). The numbers are off which is understandable knowing the source of the data. They include items that this trade is not a part of, yet blame those actions on it, like blast fishing and trawling. Since then and because of people like me, they have changed how the represent it, although that document still stands in print as written.

 

[Steveabg]

100% of all Banggai Cardinals sold should be captive bred. We have a pair of Banggai and they spawn every month. We've had them for about five months, and so far we've managed to raise one batch of fry, but they keep trying every month. The last time, there was the heat wave, and the fish got stressed and the male spit out the eggs, but I imagine he'll be barefoot and pregnant again soon.

We knew absolutely nothing about breeding when this started happening, and the only fry we lost were the ones the mother ate before we could net them. Easiest fish in the world to breed.

 

[fishyz]

I love banggai cardinals, and would love a pair for my 90g. Unfortunately, the only banggais which my lfs gets are wild caught. This winter, I would love to start breeding fish, and I am leaning towards trying banggai's. By doing that, my lfs will no longer have to bring in wild caught specimens.