Batch of bad salt, foreign objects in salt -- 1.026 = 5.8 dKH

[GoVols]

Martin,

1) Is AF "Reef Salt Mix" (NaCl free salt mix) or not?

2) Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ stabilize out with any salt brand or do you have to use "AF salt mixes" for all 3 parts to work out evenly?

Yes, We are 2 part guys. (lol) Thanks to Randy Holmes-Farley

But it's really 2 part + Magnesium, making it a different 3 part than Balling. We just call it 2 part.

I'm looking forward to your answers to my questions.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Rakie]

also, one thing i fogot to write the first time: Of course it is absolutely NOT OK if some "pieces of whatever" (eg used grinding paper ?) are within an (unopened) salt bucket.

you wrote: "Additionally... I found what looks like used sandpaper in my mix"
Q: was this within the sealed part /bag in the bucket ? Just mixed in, so that you couldn't see it once you used the first amount of salt?

or was it just lying in the bucket and not within the sealed part ?

It was deep in the bag -- I found it as I was mixing my second batch, it came up with a cup of salt sitting *just* at the top. if I had dug just a little less or more deep it would have stayed buried.

There's possibly more in there.

 

[dz6t]

Hello,
From my understanding, binders are not used. For this reason, it is imperative that the salt is tied off and the lid on the bucket is re-sealed completely, as it will harden. I had a bucket towards the middle/ end of it's use do this, the reason was that I did not re-seal the bag or the bucket properly. I have since become very aware of this and the issue has never happened again. On another site, many who ordered from a specific online retailer had the same issue with the NEW salt arriving this way. The communication I received stated the salt is still ok to use, I used it to completion with no negative impacts on my reef. The only issue was that it did not mix as well as normal. Regards,

So it is an known issue with salt in sealed containers can harden then.

This is unacceptable and should be considered a faulty product.

I hope AquaForest can address this issue without simply ignoring it.

When the salt does not dissolved completely, it won't give the right composition of sea water. It is most likely precipitation of calcium and magnesium carbonate or other carbonate.

 

[GoVols]

Hmmm... reading this is like a "Deja vu" for me.

Understanding everybody who is disappointed here, i would anyhow suggest to look for further clarification before everybody claims the manufacturer for delivering poor quality.
Give the AF guys a fair chance.

- at which exact salinity should the water have "too much Mg". Are you really sure this is at the salinity level AF is posting their values? including the Q report of the batch? Are you really sure that your measurement kits work correct and that you measure correctly?
(too high salinity too high Ca/Alk/Mg values !)

- shouldn't we do a X-Check of what was measured and stated to be out of specs with another, trusted source?
From my side i offer to check a sample "that is thought to be out of spec", fully indepentently.
For my salt measurements from ACalc i own quite reliable "measuring stuff"
a) calibrated Mettler-Toledo weigh + calibrated temp.measurement unit + TM Aeromter
b) Testkits for CA/Alk/Mg from Peter Gilbers which are the most trusted kits in Germany at the moment, checked for corrections factors with Multi-reference
however... somebody needs to send me a sample of the salt to germany....PM

units with arrived in "block form" obiously should not be part of of this.
Anyhow: the packaging might get damaged during transport without any fault from the manufacturers side, besides it would be a good idea to improve the packaging quality then ;

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

 

[GoVols]

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

Oh Yeah, I forgot. "Shhh" look at AF's Coral Farm...

 

[Potatohead]

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

It's well known that hobby test kits are not ultra accurate. The testing AF does on batches IS ultra accurate. That's their point.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

It was deep in the bag -- I found it as I was mixing my second batch, it came up with a cup of salt sitting *just* at the top. if I had dug just a little less or more deep it would have stayed buried.

There's possibly more in there.

This of course is definately NOT what it should be like.
@AF guys potentially reading this: So here you have some job to do. Improving the situation would be a good ideas. Checking first how this could happen, and letting us here know how it could. how will you avoid this in future? This would be my measures if i'd be responsible for the company.
good news here is :Sometimes issues like this showed up that they later on even improved trust levels of customers (nobody is perfect, but we should learn from our errors)

 

[Martin Kuhn]

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

I did not say that i don't trust your measurements. I just asked and offered to do a 2x check before blaming anybody.

I've been around in reef forums in Europe for quite a while now. I had SEVERAL cases where it pointed out that values taken for serious definately have been the wrong one.
Just some examples:
- Measurement tools for "spec. gravity" thought to ones for "(normal) density/gravity)
- Aerometers have been read wrong, "from above the water surface"
- No temperature measurement whilst measuring with tools that need this (Aerometers, Hydrometers, conductivity sensors). just the reading of "SG" or "density" allone do not tell you the salinity !
- SG values read from a refrak instead of using the psu scale which should be used
- Aerometers used inside tank for measuring
- Measurement tools used showed up to show wrong values
- Measurement errors, or test kits used wrong
- test kits used showed up to be scrap, gebnerating wrong results
- test kits (Ca,Alk,Mg,NO3,PO4) used have never or not recently been
- Ca/ALk/Mg values of salt mixes stated without telling how much the salinity was, AND/OR the salinity value is not to be trusted (see above)
checken with reference solutions. AND/Or values measured have not been corrected with the measured correction factors
and and and ... the complete list is even longer.
Do you want more ?

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Martin,

1) Is AF "Reef Salt Mix" (NaCl free salt mix) or not?

2) Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ stabilize out with any salt brand or do you have to use "AF salt mixes" for all 3 parts to work out evenly?

Yes, We are 2 part guys. (lol) Thanks to Randy Holmes-Farley

But it's really 2 part + Magnesium, making it a different 3 part than Balling. We just call it 2 part.

I'm looking forward to your answers to my questions.

Regards, GoVols

1.) No. Definately not.
2.) Of course you can use it with all salt mix brands and sub types
It adapts your Ca and Alk levels because of your corals and other consumptions of your tank . Also it adds traces.

Take a look into AFs quite informative instructions (good job done here by AF!). You will find out the following
1+ CaCl2 x2H2O mixed in ROI
2+ MgCl2 x6H2O mixed in ROI
3+ NaCl free salt mixture mixed in ROI (Mg + other traces, not only Mg !)

for 1+2+ concentrations are in about "the same ratio" but "a bit lower concentrated" than Hans Werner original Balling formulation
concentration of 3+ is not stated by AF. Dosing to be used is "simpler to handle" than what Hans Werner suggested

for me it is "a slightly changed version of Hans-Werners original Balling formulation, sold as pre-mixed liquid solutions under a different name"



The next question that will arise by sure is: "andwhat is about eventual ion dis-balance" ?
lets not mix up things and discuss about this in another thread

 

[GoVols]

I did not say that i don't trust your measurements. I just asked and offered to do a 2x check before blaming anybody.

I've been around in reef forums in Europe for quite a while now. I had SEVERAL cases where it pointed out that values taken for serious definately have been the wrong one.
Just some examples:
- Measurement tools for "spec. gravity" thought to ones for "(normal) density/gravity)
- Aerometers have been read wrong, "from above the water surface"
- No temperature measurement whilst measuring with tools that need this (Aerometers, Hydrometers, conductivity sensors). just the reading of "SG" or "density" allone do not tell you the salinity !
- SG values read from a refrak instead of using the psu scale which should be used
- Aerometers used inside tank for measuring
- Measurement tools used showed up to show wrong values
- Measurement errors, or test kits used wrong
- test kits used showed up to be scrap, gebnerating wrong results
- test kits (Ca,Alk,Mg,NO3,PO4) used have never or not recently been
- Ca/ALk/Mg values of salt mixes stated without telling how much the salinity was, AND/OR the salinity value is not to be trusted (see above)
checken with reference solutions. AND/Or values measured have not been corrected with the measured correction factors
and and and ... the complete list is even longer.
Do you want more ?

If you read my first post

Cross checked against 3 different test kits. (Api / Red sea and Elos.

Also drove (The next day) mixed sample 30 miles to Nashville to my (LFS) and they matched my SG and the "Big 3".

I mix 3 - 5 gallon jugs once a week (At the Same Time) for my weekly water changes. Jug 1 finished my current bucket of salt. Opened new bucket and mixed into jugs 2 and 3 which tested to the low Cal and Alk #'s. All 3 jugs came in at 1.025 SG. Jug 1 was still holding NSW parameters.

I would never call Deep Water Aq or posted on here or Dr Foster & Smith without ruling out all possible option but the mix first. Even Deep Water told me sea mix must have be put in reef salt buckets. Well I could see it being OK the first time but after using 3 more buckets and hitting the same low #'s again is not a fluke.

I order six order's

#1 Dead on specs.
#2 Low #'s
#'s 3-5 Dead on Specs
#6 Low #'s

I don't claim be be a reef genius but after 30 years I've never had anybodies salt come in way off who provides QC sheets Like "Salinity". Also I've been around long enough to check anybodies parameter's when opening a new box or bucket. It maybe too late after you see things changing in your main display "for the worst".

It's also not good enough to say send sample Europe. If your going to sale in the states then support us here. When I called Deep Water and Salty Supply the first time they didn't want a sample or the bucket to test. They said all we can do is email Europe. If they did email Europe I wasn't asked to be copied on it. I also didn't ask for a replacement either. As a customer I shouldn't have to if Deep Water is not willing to test it. I guess they don't have the equipment or knowledge either...

Like I said in my post if I wanted to dose up while mixing I'd stayed with regular "Instant Ocean".

Still can't get a answer for any of my questions...

I'm going to ask the last one,--- one more time (Below)

Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ Stabilize in equal daily dosing on all 3 parts with all major salt mix brands?

Getting this question answered is asking a politician something here in the USA!

 

[2dawghouse]

This of course is definately NOT what it should be like.
@AF guys potentially reading this: So here you have some job to do. Improving the situation would be a good ideas. Checking first how this could happen, and letting us here know how it could. how will you avoid this in future? This would be my measures if i'd be responsible for the company.
good news here is :Sometimes issues like this showed up that they later on even improved trust levels of customers (nobody is perfect, but we should learn from our errors)

This is exactly my thoughts. I never said I wouldon't use AF products again. I've been very pleased with their products up till this batch of salt. And I understand stuff happens and products go sideways. But to hear AF acknowledge this shows competency and a willing to fix it so that we as consumers can be assured this won't be an ongoing issue.

 

[GoVols]

If you read my first post

Cross checked against 3 different test kits. (Api / Red sea and Elos.

Also drove (The next day) mixed sample 30 miles to Nashville to my (LFS) and they matched my SG and the "Big 3".

I mix 3 - 5 gallon jugs once a week (At the Same Time) for my weekly water changes. Jug 1 finished my current bucket of salt. Opened new bucket and mixed into jugs 2 and 3 which tested to the low Cal and Alk #'s. All 3 jugs came in at 1.025 SG. Jug 1 was still holding NSW parameters.

I would never call Deep Water Aq or posted on here or Dr Foster & Smith without ruling out all possible option but the mix first. Even Deep Water told me sea mix must have be put in reef salt buckets. Well I could see it being OK the first time but after using 3 more buckets and hitting the same low #'s again is not a fluke.

I order six order's

#1 Dead on specs.
#2 Low #'s
#'s 3-5 Dead on Specs
#6 Low #'s

I don't claim be be a reef genius but after 30 years I've never had anybodies salt come in way off who provides QC sheets Like "Salinity". Also I've been around long enough to check anybodies parameter's when opening a new box or bucket. It maybe too late after you see things changing in your main display "for the worst".

It's also not good enough to say send sample Europe. If your going to sale in the states then support us here. When I called Deep Water and Salty Supply the first time they didn't want a sample or the bucket to test. They said all we can do is email Europe. If they did email Europe I wasn't asked to be copied on it. I also didn't ask for a replacement either. As a customer I shouldn't have to if Deep Water is not willing to test it. I guess they don't have the equipment or knowledge either...

Like I said in my post if I wanted to dose up while mixing I'd stayed with regular "Instant Ocean".

Still can't get a answer for any of my questions...

I'm going to ask the last one,--- one more time (Below)

Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ Stabilize in equal daily dosing on all 3 parts with all major salt mix brands?

Getting this question answered is asking a politician something here in the USA!

Never Mind, I see you did respond to that question. My Bad

Deep Water told me it had to AF or Tropic Marin salt Mixes.

Deep Water needs to be educated too. I would have stayed with Comp. 1-3+ if they haven't told this miss guided info.

 

[GoVols]

It's well known that hobby test kits are not ultra accurate. The testing AF does on batches IS ultra accurate. That's their point.

When your params. Mix to 350 Cal and 6 Alk.

That's not even getting into the "Ultra Accurate".

That's getting into the dosing while mixing point.

I'm wasn't buying AF to dose and never had to with "Salinity". Always mixed with reason to NSW and their QC encoded on each bucket,

That's my point.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Still can't get a answer for any of my questions...

I'm going to ask the last one,--- one more time (Below)

Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ Stabilize in equal daily dosing on all 3 parts with all major salt mix brands?

Getting this question answered is asking a politician something here in the USA!

Sorry in case i make you upset, this is not my intention

There is no senseful answer to your question!
- it doesn't have to do anything the brands or types of salt !
- 1+2+3+ is an Ca/Alk adaptation system with Mg and traces, that's it - full stop-
- None of this systems can "stabilize in equal dosing" what millions of different aquariums world-wide "consume". that is IMPOSSIBLE
- I doubt also that there will be a system you are asking for in future. The only chance to do that is "automatically and steadily measuring AND adapting" with .... whatever you call it

this answer is not political, but it is technical wise correct

by the way
if there is the impression that i'm working for any distributor, i can answer with a clear NO.

What i'm writing here just as a fan of this hobby. Fully independent, but with "some existing experience and i think also KnowHow"

i just tried to help to puzzle out things here.
Maybe i shouldn't

 

[dz6t]

And I understand stuff happens and products go sideways. But to hear AF acknowledge this shows competency and a willing to fix it so that we as consumers can be assured this won't be an ongoing issue.

So far I am still using AF salt and I hope AF will start to pay attention to these issues.

 

[Aquaforest]

@AquaForest

How true is this " Component 1+ 2+ 3+ will only work with AF or Tropic Marin salts to stabilize ions" Need to be NaCl free salt???

Is this the cause of SPS STNing just after couple days of dosing COMP123???

Component 1+2+3+ is based on Balling Method - but not the same.
It contains:
1+ Ca, Mg, Sr, Ba, Co, Mn, Cu, Fe, Zn, Ni, Cr
2+ NaHCO3, F, I
3+ Mineral salts, K, Bo.

 

[GoVols]

This is exactly my thoughts. I never said I wouldon't use AF products again. I've been very pleased with their products up till this batch of salt. And I understand stuff happens and products go sideways. But to hear AF acknowledge this shows competency and a willing to fix it so that we as consumers can be assured this won't be an ongoing issue.

I never saw AF open up or this forum about any QC issues. Not ever new buckets of block hard salt or the trash in Rakies salt. Must less mixed parameters not matching QC sheets like low alk and 1500 mag.

Martin Kuhn did but he's not part of Aquaforest. At lease he came on here and tried to help us.

The only thing I've seen AF own up to was "Were's the Suffer: thread.
People sent in samples to Triton Labs and it showed low suffer.

Finally AF responded that they are trying to fix their QC for suffer.

With no official response from AF it leaves me to believe they think we don't know how to mix salt, not going to fix their QC issues or going to try to fix their QC and not going to say anything.

If AF said they've looked into and resolved these issues beginning with certain new batch #'s I'd switch back to their Reef Salt. (ASAP)

 

[Rakie]

They never sent me the replacement bucket of Salt they promised either. Their non salt products seem fine. Even their salt initially gave me some good PE in my SPS, which leads me to believe the initial WC wasn't enough to swing my dKH, but WAS bringing in other good things.

AquaForest has proven to not care about customer support or Quality Control.

In their other products I've used, I've had stellar results -- But even the packaging leaves something to be desired. My bottle of -NP Pro was a 10ml bottle, as someone who had only a 29g tank, a single drop was a dose. This 10ml bottle came half empty, and tested out to a little over 7ml. Additionally, my Pro bio S is also 10ml, but seems to have about 9-10ml after *heavy* use.

So "10ml" apparently means "7-15ml, depending on which way the wind is blowing that day".

What blows me away here is how nice some of their products genuinely are, yet how they can't even manage to get 10ml of the product into a 10ml bottle... It's both a complete shame, and shows extremely poor QUALITY control.

 

[biecacka]

Is it possible that the salt is still in the mail or something? I am blown away at the level of CS they are showing. I was considering some of their products.....
Corey

 

[GoVols]

They never sent me the replacement bucket of Salt they promised either. Their non salt products seem fine. Even their salt initially gave me some good PE in my SPS, which leads me to believe the initial WC wasn't enough to swing my dKH, but WAS bringing in other good things.

AquaForest has proven to not care about customer support or Quality Control.

In their other products I've used, I've had stellar results -- But even the packaging leaves something to be desired. My bottle of -NP Pro was a 10ml bottle, as someone who had only a 29g tank, a single drop was a dose. This 10ml bottle came half empty, and tested out to a little over 7ml. Additionally, my Pro bio S is also 10ml, but seems to have about 9-10ml after *heavy* use.

So "10ml" apparently means "7-15ml, depending on which way the wind is blowing that day".

What blows me away here is how nice some of their products genuinely are, yet how they can't even manage to get 10ml of the product into a 10ml bottle... It's both a complete shame, and shows extremely poor QUALITY control.

Rakie, Thanks for stepping back up to the plate for us, again!

You started this thread and look at all the reports that came in from concerned reefers. Sold blocks of salt and way off parameters to AF QC sheet / Blue and brown salt mix.

Not to mention how many don't check their parameters, wont post or no nothing about Reef Central.

I started their reef salt as soon as it hit the USA. I would love to say all has been well too. I reported and posted my findings for the truth. Reefers and AF can take it or leave it.

I can't believe you still haven't got a replacement bucket and you even had Jabba the Hut floating in there.

I do agree some of their products are great. Component 1+ 2+ 3+ was the most stable dosing product I ever used once lock in.

But the sad fact is (To This Day) AF has TRULY never responded to your thread or any of us pertaining to any of these issues.

They may be caring people as one poster said, but their utter silence to this thread tells me all I need to know.

Regards, GoVols