I started a new thread because I didn't want to hijack the Lifereef thread.
QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8259072#post8259072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TurboSnail8898
Becketts do have a lot of horsepower, but they are not very efficient when measured against a high quality NW. That horsepower has to come from somewhere and Becketts use massive pumps that are loud, use a lot of energy and produce considerable heat. Space is another consideration. A NW can be very compact and all but the largest can usually be kept under a cabinet. An equivalent Beckett would be between 4' and 6' tall. That's not something that can be kept under the tank. Look into H&S or Deltec skimmers and see why so many are jumping on the bandwagon. I have seen a lot of people go from Becketts to NW, but very few go from NW to Becketts. [/QUOTE]
Hey TurboSnail8898,
I don’t know if you’ve kept up with the latest advances. A modern, well designed Beckett skimmer is none of the things you claim. Just like a needlewheel, it is easy to build a Beckett skimmer without really knowing what you are doing and because they produce so much foam (which is what you are trying to do with a protein skimmer in the first place) they may seem to work ok. However, those companies that have made the investment to engineer all the details right have some very satisfied customers and you don't see them moving away from Beckett skimmers. Here’s specifically where the technology has improved beyond what you may be familiar with:
- the “massive†pump myth. This is really an issue of how the pump companies package their pumps. For the beckett skimmer I’m looking at from Austin Oceans (really a Barr Aquatic design) the Austin Oceans website recommends a Sequence Tarpon rated at 175 watts. The Sequence is a high quality pump with a 3 year warranty and Sequence has great customer service. Basically if your Sequence pump has a problem during the warranty they just take care of it. The Sequence is a low speed pump so it’s quiet â€"œ a number of people have these in their living room outside of the stand without a noise issue. And before you start quoting 65 watts (or less) for your needlewheel pump, you have to add in the skimmer feed pump. So that’s 2 pumps for most needlewheel skimmers that both produce noise and use electricity. In many cases it’s a draw when compared with a low speed pressure pump like the Sequence Tarpon. However, this isn’t a big ding against needlewheels. Usually the 2 pumps (or 3 or 4 depending on which model of needlewheel skimmer you have) on a needlewheel are relatively quiet and the electricity usage is close to or only slightly more than the Beckett skimmer pump (which only needs 1 pump no matter how large the skimmer, but it may be a larger pump on larger skimmers). The Sequence pumps are physically larger than 1 of the needlewheel pumps but I don’t think most people are trying to optimize for the physical size of the pump.
- Height. The easy sweet spot for a well designed beckett skimmer seems to be 3-4’. This is enough height to dissipate the energy from the large amounts of foam generated by the beckett. Don’t be fooled by those guys that build 6 foot (or taller) beckett skimmers. It takes a lot more engineering skill to design a really tall skimmer. Check out the DIY section of reef central and you’ll see how some of those guys are having a hard time dealing with the head issues of a 5 or 6 foot skimmer. Some needlewheel skimmer pumps won’t even work well for a 2-3 foot skimmer â€"œ they have to use a supplementary air pump to generate sufficient foam (but that works and fortunately air pumps use only a small amount of electricity). There are large, well designed beckett skimmers out there but you have to do your homework to figure out which ones work really well and which ones just put a really long neck on their skimmer to get “marketing inchesâ€Â.
- Efficiency. This depends on how you measure efficiency. For me, the measure of efficiency is how well and how much the skimmer removes excess organics and other nutrients from my reef tank. From my research, a well designed beckett skimmer is more efficient than any other approach available today. The goal of the skimmer is to produce lots of foam to collect the things you are trying to get out of your tank and then to effectively remove the foam from your skimmer. One of the best measures of how efficient your skimmer is requires that you measure the amount of air going into the skimmer (which is a way to measure the amount of foam produced). If you check again on the DIY board you’ll see the guys there are really focused on this measure. If your needlewheel skimmer uses 15 scfh of air (that’s cubic feet per hour at standard conditions) then everyone thinks you have a pretty decent skimmer. 20 scfh or more is really good for a needlewheel skimmer (yes, I know the about the gutterguard impellor mod and the 30+ scfh numbers â€"œ but we’re talking about skimmers you can buy from a real vendor not DIY hotrodding). Many off the shelf needlewheel skimmers do less than 10 scfh. A well designed beckett skimmer can do 45-50 (or more) scfh per beckett (here’s a picture if you are skeptical: http://austinoceans.com/products-skimmers.html#skimmers (look down the page about 12†on the right)). For the beckett skimmer I’m looking at that’s 45 scfh vs. maybe 15 scfh for a really well designed needlewheel skimmer (or 90+ scfh for a dual beckett skimmer!) and that’s using a comparable number of watts. So the beckett skimmer is much more efficient and will remove more “stuff†from the water. They question is whether you need this much efficiency for your reef tank or not. If you just keep softies then probably not. If you keep SPS like I do then the answer is absolutely yes. This is why you are seeing more people look at using beckett skimmers these days. There are now high quality beckett vendors out there (e.g. in another thread in this forum a well respected poster called the GEO and Austin Oceans/Barr products “built like a tank†and the “best build qualityâ€Â) that don’t have the problems that people saw with old style beckett products but are much more powerful and efficient than any other skimmer out there in terms of what you can buy off the shelf. Some people don’t need this but others need and want it.
Needlewheels are very popular with the masses and there are a number of very decent needlewheels out there (ER, Deltec, H&S, BK, and a few more). I also don't accept Marcs condemnation of Euroreef because of one needlewheel pump that caught fire. The skimmer companies generally don't build the pumps. They are dependent on the pump manufacturer’s quality control. If Sedra (the ER pump supplier) had a big problem with needlewheel pumps catching fire then you would be hearing about it from a lot more people than Marc. For some applications, a needlewheel skimmer I think is probably the right choice. I've done an obsessive amount of research while planning my new reef tank and while I’m leaning towards a beckett skimmer instead of a needlewheel I can see why a needlewheel is the right choice for some people, including:
- a short skimmer to fit under a stand, particularly a shorter stand. It is very difficult for the beckett skimmer companies to contain all the foam generated by a beckett in a short package. So needlewheels are better if you have 2 feet or so to fit your skimmer in since you may not be able to find another well designed skimmer to fit into that space.
- Small tanks with lower skimming requirements. If you tank is smaller than say 50 gallons and you have a small stand then a needlewheel is probably your best choice. At the smaller end of the scale the needlewheel advantages mostly work for you â€"œ your skimmer will only have 1 needlewheel pump and the skimmer feed pump can be small (and quiet). If I was starting out with a 30 gallon tank I think a needlewheel is the obvious right choice.
- Non-SPS tanks. If you keep softies and a small number of (non-messy eaters) fish then you don’t need the cutting edge on nutrient removal. A needlewheel is probably a good choice.
As you can probably tell I’ve spent way too much time looking into this issue. For many people a good quality skimmer will work fine for their tank, even a Lifereef (which is apparently easy to maintain and has several very vocal supporters â€"œ peace, if it works for you and you’re happy then I have no issue with it). If you care about performance then you have to look deeper. When I look deeper this is what I see. But I welcome any other fact-based data.
Al
QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8259072#post8259072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TurboSnail8898
Becketts do have a lot of horsepower, but they are not very efficient when measured against a high quality NW. That horsepower has to come from somewhere and Becketts use massive pumps that are loud, use a lot of energy and produce considerable heat. Space is another consideration. A NW can be very compact and all but the largest can usually be kept under a cabinet. An equivalent Beckett would be between 4' and 6' tall. That's not something that can be kept under the tank. Look into H&S or Deltec skimmers and see why so many are jumping on the bandwagon. I have seen a lot of people go from Becketts to NW, but very few go from NW to Becketts. [/QUOTE]
Hey TurboSnail8898,
I don’t know if you’ve kept up with the latest advances. A modern, well designed Beckett skimmer is none of the things you claim. Just like a needlewheel, it is easy to build a Beckett skimmer without really knowing what you are doing and because they produce so much foam (which is what you are trying to do with a protein skimmer in the first place) they may seem to work ok. However, those companies that have made the investment to engineer all the details right have some very satisfied customers and you don't see them moving away from Beckett skimmers. Here’s specifically where the technology has improved beyond what you may be familiar with:
- the “massive†pump myth. This is really an issue of how the pump companies package their pumps. For the beckett skimmer I’m looking at from Austin Oceans (really a Barr Aquatic design) the Austin Oceans website recommends a Sequence Tarpon rated at 175 watts. The Sequence is a high quality pump with a 3 year warranty and Sequence has great customer service. Basically if your Sequence pump has a problem during the warranty they just take care of it. The Sequence is a low speed pump so it’s quiet â€"œ a number of people have these in their living room outside of the stand without a noise issue. And before you start quoting 65 watts (or less) for your needlewheel pump, you have to add in the skimmer feed pump. So that’s 2 pumps for most needlewheel skimmers that both produce noise and use electricity. In many cases it’s a draw when compared with a low speed pressure pump like the Sequence Tarpon. However, this isn’t a big ding against needlewheels. Usually the 2 pumps (or 3 or 4 depending on which model of needlewheel skimmer you have) on a needlewheel are relatively quiet and the electricity usage is close to or only slightly more than the Beckett skimmer pump (which only needs 1 pump no matter how large the skimmer, but it may be a larger pump on larger skimmers). The Sequence pumps are physically larger than 1 of the needlewheel pumps but I don’t think most people are trying to optimize for the physical size of the pump.
- Height. The easy sweet spot for a well designed beckett skimmer seems to be 3-4’. This is enough height to dissipate the energy from the large amounts of foam generated by the beckett. Don’t be fooled by those guys that build 6 foot (or taller) beckett skimmers. It takes a lot more engineering skill to design a really tall skimmer. Check out the DIY section of reef central and you’ll see how some of those guys are having a hard time dealing with the head issues of a 5 or 6 foot skimmer. Some needlewheel skimmer pumps won’t even work well for a 2-3 foot skimmer â€"œ they have to use a supplementary air pump to generate sufficient foam (but that works and fortunately air pumps use only a small amount of electricity). There are large, well designed beckett skimmers out there but you have to do your homework to figure out which ones work really well and which ones just put a really long neck on their skimmer to get “marketing inchesâ€Â.
- Efficiency. This depends on how you measure efficiency. For me, the measure of efficiency is how well and how much the skimmer removes excess organics and other nutrients from my reef tank. From my research, a well designed beckett skimmer is more efficient than any other approach available today. The goal of the skimmer is to produce lots of foam to collect the things you are trying to get out of your tank and then to effectively remove the foam from your skimmer. One of the best measures of how efficient your skimmer is requires that you measure the amount of air going into the skimmer (which is a way to measure the amount of foam produced). If you check again on the DIY board you’ll see the guys there are really focused on this measure. If your needlewheel skimmer uses 15 scfh of air (that’s cubic feet per hour at standard conditions) then everyone thinks you have a pretty decent skimmer. 20 scfh or more is really good for a needlewheel skimmer (yes, I know the about the gutterguard impellor mod and the 30+ scfh numbers â€"œ but we’re talking about skimmers you can buy from a real vendor not DIY hotrodding). Many off the shelf needlewheel skimmers do less than 10 scfh. A well designed beckett skimmer can do 45-50 (or more) scfh per beckett (here’s a picture if you are skeptical: http://austinoceans.com/products-skimmers.html#skimmers (look down the page about 12†on the right)). For the beckett skimmer I’m looking at that’s 45 scfh vs. maybe 15 scfh for a really well designed needlewheel skimmer (or 90+ scfh for a dual beckett skimmer!) and that’s using a comparable number of watts. So the beckett skimmer is much more efficient and will remove more “stuff†from the water. They question is whether you need this much efficiency for your reef tank or not. If you just keep softies then probably not. If you keep SPS like I do then the answer is absolutely yes. This is why you are seeing more people look at using beckett skimmers these days. There are now high quality beckett vendors out there (e.g. in another thread in this forum a well respected poster called the GEO and Austin Oceans/Barr products “built like a tank†and the “best build qualityâ€Â) that don’t have the problems that people saw with old style beckett products but are much more powerful and efficient than any other skimmer out there in terms of what you can buy off the shelf. Some people don’t need this but others need and want it.
Needlewheels are very popular with the masses and there are a number of very decent needlewheels out there (ER, Deltec, H&S, BK, and a few more). I also don't accept Marcs condemnation of Euroreef because of one needlewheel pump that caught fire. The skimmer companies generally don't build the pumps. They are dependent on the pump manufacturer’s quality control. If Sedra (the ER pump supplier) had a big problem with needlewheel pumps catching fire then you would be hearing about it from a lot more people than Marc. For some applications, a needlewheel skimmer I think is probably the right choice. I've done an obsessive amount of research while planning my new reef tank and while I’m leaning towards a beckett skimmer instead of a needlewheel I can see why a needlewheel is the right choice for some people, including:
- a short skimmer to fit under a stand, particularly a shorter stand. It is very difficult for the beckett skimmer companies to contain all the foam generated by a beckett in a short package. So needlewheels are better if you have 2 feet or so to fit your skimmer in since you may not be able to find another well designed skimmer to fit into that space.
- Small tanks with lower skimming requirements. If you tank is smaller than say 50 gallons and you have a small stand then a needlewheel is probably your best choice. At the smaller end of the scale the needlewheel advantages mostly work for you â€"œ your skimmer will only have 1 needlewheel pump and the skimmer feed pump can be small (and quiet). If I was starting out with a 30 gallon tank I think a needlewheel is the obvious right choice.
- Non-SPS tanks. If you keep softies and a small number of (non-messy eaters) fish then you don’t need the cutting edge on nutrient removal. A needlewheel is probably a good choice.
As you can probably tell I’ve spent way too much time looking into this issue. For many people a good quality skimmer will work fine for their tank, even a Lifereef (which is apparently easy to maintain and has several very vocal supporters â€"œ peace, if it works for you and you’re happy then I have no issue with it). If you care about performance then you have to look deeper. When I look deeper this is what I see. But I welcome any other fact-based data.
Al
