Beckett vs. Needlewheel skimmers

1) Ever hear of gravity feeding? You dont need a feed pump.

3) A 1260 NW does not use 65W. It has nothing to do with DIY. Just facts. Finsreef website is wrong.

5) stock out of the box NW skimmers is what I'm referring to

6). Yes, that is correct. 30+ scfh for ~ 50W Eheim 1260. My ER RS250 is over 33 scfh, 60W total power usage. No feed pump. Stock out of the box.
 
I check my Deltec 851 the single Eheim 1262 use 36 Watts of electricity.
My Deltec 902 has two 1260 Eheims one run at 32 Watts and the other 31 watts.
The return on my 90G tank is a 1260 Eheim that pump use a 62 Watts of electricity but it is a return pump no NW.
On my old Beckett skimmer 830 Aerofoamer i use a iwaki 70 RLT at 354 watts.
 
Rich I don't know you so perhaps I don't understand what you are trying to say. I will say that I'm not interested in getting into personal attacks and if I've said something that upset you I sincerely apologize. Since I don't understand the points you are trying to make in your last 2 posts I'll not respond to those. I am interested in a professional, fact based discussion. Oh, I did get your point that my hypothetical Mag5 wasn't as good a choice as an Eheim. I agree. The 1250 you suggest won't do the flow that was spec'ed in this case but a 1260 will and that's certainly a reasonable choice. I'll pass this on to my friend next time I see him. Thank you for that suggestion.

Frank, thanks for the pointer to the article. Although that was a while ago it was interesting to read and I had not seen it before. Since I am still in the planning stage I am trying to lay out my decisions criteria for selecting a skimmer. It's a lot better to do that now that after I've already bought one. I do think it is possible to do some quantitive analysis on skimmer performance although I agree it is difficult. And I think I've clearly narrowed my list down to good skimmers so it's a matter of picking the best of a good bunch of products. Everyone has their own definition of "best". My definition is different than a lot of the discussion I see in some of these threads. I think the objective measure of how much air goes through a skimmer is a good way to find the skimmer that will perform best for my tank (this assumes that the skimmers all use the air effectively but since I've narrowed it down already to very good skimmers I think that's a safe assumption). The benchmark skimmer and pump combination I've picked to evaluate other skimmers against is a beckett skimmer that uses a 175 watt pressure pump (according to Sequence - it may use less in real life). I am comfortable with that budget. The comparison skimmers are multiple pump NW skimmers (I agree with your point about the name but everyone understands when I say NW skimmer). I would definitely be interested in more data on the measured scfh for H&S, Deltec, Euroreef, and BK skimmers if anyone has it or knows where it is published in a thread. The NW skimmer vendors don't seem as interested in publishing their scfh numbers.

Btw, since you mentioned the noise issue too, I had an opportunity recently to watch a dual beckett skimmer in action. This one had air flow meters on each beckett and they were both running at 45 scfh (a total of 90 scfh). The skimmer was very quiet.

Hey TurboSnail8898, you never said what kind of feed pump you use with your H&S skimmer.

Al
 
Al,

I don't use a feed pump for my H&S. It is run by a single Eheim 1260. The H&S skimmers that are internal aren't recirculating so they don't require pumps to feed them. The external skimmers do require pumps to feed them.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8265125#post8265125 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
1) Ever hear of gravity feeding? You dont need a feed pump.

3) A 1260 NW does not use 65W. It has nothing to do with DIY. Just facts. Finsreef website is wrong.

5) stock out of the box NW skimmers is what I'm referring to

6). Yes, that is correct. 30+ scfh for ~ 50W Eheim 1260. My ER RS250 is over 33 scfh, 60W total power usage. No feed pump. Stock out of the box.

Ok, perhaps I don't get it. I gravity feed back from the skimmer to the sump. I don't see how I can gravity feed to the skimmer, particularly how my space is arranged. Are you taking water straight from the tank overflow before it gets to the sump? I don't think that will work for me and I have to use a feeder pump out of the sump.

Ok, I hear you. Finsreef and H&S websites are wrong on the Eheim power rating. It does make it more difficult to do the analysis if I can't count on the vendors to get it close to right for their own equipment. Do you happen to know if any of the other vendors posted numbers are significantly wrong too or is it just the H&S guys?

Ok, got it.

30+ scfh is a great number for your ER. All the numbers I had were for Sedra pumps and they were significantly less. You don't happen to know what the numbers are for the Gen-X 4100 on the RC750 do you? That was the ER model I was looking at.

Thanks for the feedback.

Al
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8265437#post8265437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TurboSnail8898
Al,

I don't use a feed pump for my H&S. It is run by a single Eheim 1260. The H&S skimmers that are internal aren't recirculating so they don't require pumps to feed them. The external skimmers do require pumps to feed them.

Which model of H&S skimmer did you get? This is on a 110 gallon tank?
 
The skimmer is rated for a 300 gallon, its an H&S 200-1260. My tank is over skimmed, especially because I only have two fish in the tank, lol. But SPS don't like DOC's so I try to keep them out of the tank and in my collection cup.
 
becketts are flat out made for big tanks with marketing pushing the desighn for smaller tanks just like needelwheels made for smaller tanks and marketing pushing the desighn for bigger tanks
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8265458#post8265458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alwest45
Ok, perhaps I don't get it. I gravity feed back from the skimmer to the sump. I don't see how I can gravity feed to the skimmer, particularly how my space is arranged. Are you taking water straight from the tank overflow before it gets to the sump? I don't think that will work for me and I have to use a feeder pump out of the sump.

Al

You gravity feed a NW skimmer off the drain from the tank... In between the tank and the sump on the drain line... No feed pump needed:)
 
Assuming the flamefest from last night has died down, I noticed an interesting post from Euroreef about their new pumps and impellers. This is in the ASM vs. Euroreef thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=940689&perpage=25&pagenumber=2) and I noticed that Euroreef was trying to make the same point I was, namely that for skimmers that are well designed, the best objective criteria for skimmer efficiency and performance (efficiency defined as how well it skims - in this case efficiency does not have anything to do with electricity usage) is to look at how much air the skimmer is pulling (this assumes again that the skimmer is well designed and uses this air to produce lots of foam and manages the turbulence well so that the foam is properly exited from the skimmer). Let me restate my main point from my posting yesterday and ask for your data based feedback. I think when evaluating a good crop of skimmers and when you are looking to find the one that will be most efficient at removing nutrients, compare the airflow through the skimmer (either scfh or lpm) to determine which skimmer will do the best job. Does anyone know of a reason this would not be true? Keep in mind my assumption that this evaluation will only be done on top performing skimmers that already have a reputation for doing a good to excellent job of skimming.

The specific post from Euroreef announces that their new impellor (announced yesterday) can deliver 1080 lph using the Gen-X 4100 pump (the RC750 has three of these). I think that is about 38 scfh (is this right? Can someone check the math?) so it compares well with the beckett skimmer I was using as my benchmark.

With the new Euroreef numbers I have computed a new set of metrics to compare my skimmer pool. They are:

Skimmer Performance & Skimmer Pump
ER RC750 38 scfh (3 GEN-X 4100 pumps)
Deltec AP902 56 scfh (2 Eheim 1260 pumps)
H&S A200-2s1260 ?? scfh (2 Eheim 1260 pumps)
BK250 (ext) 53 scfh (1? Red Dragon pump)
AO Foaminator MAX 4000 45 scfh (1 Sequence/Reeflo UNO Tarpon)

Does anyone else know the appropriate airflow numbers for the H&S skimmer? Would it be essentially the same as the Deltec numbers? Yesterday I heard 30+ scfh for an Eheim 1260 NW pump. Deltec appears to rate theirs at 28 scfh (assuming I have the conversion right) but it’s possible they are conservative in their rating. If I don’t hear any other input I’ll use 30 scfh for the H&S but it doesn’t seem right to use different numbers for the Deltec and H&S unless someone knows they produce different results.

The NW air flow numbers I had been using were based on some ER Sedra airflow numbers. These are much larger and compare favorably with the beckett numbers (unless I decide to upgrade to a dual beckett skimmer). I am also starting to look much more closely at the H&S skimmer. If it really does 56 (or 60) scfh then maybe it is moving into first place in my evaluation. Based on this data it also appears that both the Deltec and H&S skimmers perform better than the BK although the BK is more expensive (I also backed down from the BK400 â€"œ it does 88 scfh â€"œ almost the same as the dual beckett skimmer - so it is clearly in a different league than these skimmers)

Any feedback on my methodology or results? I know there are other factors impacting skimmer performance such as geometry and turbulence but for skimmers that already have a proven reputation for being very good skimmers isn’t comparing airflow an effective way to measure the overall performance of the skimmer?
 
The math of 1080 LPH = 38 SCFH seems right to me. That is each SP4 pump. An RC 750 would have 38 x 3 = 114 SCFH
 
Oops. I was using my buddies laptop and the previous post ended up under his name instead of mine. Sorry for the confusion.

Al
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8268578#post8268578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
The math of 1080 LPH = 38 SCFH seems right to me. That is each SP4 pump. An RC 750 would have 38 x 3 = 114 SCFH

Oops again. Thanks for the catch. That puts the RC750 out of the league of the rest of them so I'm substituting the RC500. Here's my new chart.

Skimmer Performance & Skimmer Pump
ER RC500 76 scfh (2 GEN-X 4100 pumps)
Deltec AP902 56 scfh (2 Eheim 1260 pumps)
H&S A200-2s1260 ?? scfh (2 Eheim 1260 pumps)
BK250 (ext) 53 scfh (1? Red Dragon pump)
AO Foaminator MAX 4000 45 scfh (1 Sequence/Reeflo UNO Tarpon)

So now the ER is the new performance leader. Any other corrections or did I get it right this time?

Al
 
Skimmer Performance & Skimmer Pump
ER RC750 38 scfh (3 GEN-X 4100 pumps)
Deltec AP902 56 scfh (2 Eheim 1260 pumps)
H&S A200-2s1260 ?? scfh (2 Eheim 1260 pumps)
BK250 (ext) 53 scfh (1? Red Dragon pump)
AO Foaminator MAX 4000 45 scfh (1 Sequence/Reeflo UNO Tarpon)

Those 4100s pull 38 scfh EACH. Thats over 100 SCFH on the 750.

My problem with Becketts is that theyre teh sledgehammer approach. IE force more air rather than fixing the design issues. Most Becketts done even have tapered transitions: Thats bad design, period.


FWIW, a tinymight driven NW skimmer will pull 100+ scfh at 6' for under 100w.
 
Wow glad you took this out of the Reeflife thread.

I guess we are leaving out in sump models NW, to bad!

For me id build separated sump just so I could run an ATI Bubble Master 250 especially at the price.
40 watts 2200 LPH 77 SCFH!! out of the box ( that still amazes me)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8265541#post8265541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by saveafish
becketts are flat out made for big tanks with marketing pushing the desighn for smaller tanks just like needelwheels made for smaller tanks and marketing pushing the desighn for bigger tanks

wow, the only post that actually makes sense to me in this thread,

sam
 
i wouldn't be too quick to say that absolute air throughput is the best way to measure skimmers. i'm using a deltec 851 (after dropping down from a 902) and with both skimmers (both use the same pump), wide open each pump would draw just under 25scfh. however, they skimmed much better when valved down significantly (15-18). this is because with less air being introduced into the pump, it pumped more water, causing more forceful swirling within the body (some people might say smaller bubbles but i don't see it). i can't be sure of this, but it looks like there is more air in the body at any given instant when valved down because the swirling traps more bubbles and keeps them in play longer.

edit: and by swirling i don't mean random chaotic eddies, but deliberate circular motion.
 
Yes, I've fixed the math error. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm really interested in specifics but I cannot decipher this: Most Becketts done even have tapered transitions. Could you explain in more detail what you meant? If you know if real world examples that's helpful too.

Al
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8265541#post8265541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by saveafish
becketts are flat out made for big tanks with marketing pushing the desighn for smaller tanks just like needelwheels made for smaller tanks and marketing pushing the desighn for bigger tanks
your right their is a lot of truth in that. But technolagy is also pushing the deriction and abilitys of the NW to a larger degree upwards.

to quote my freind Covey talking about the ATI Bubble Master NW skimmer "It's like a energy-effiecent beckett skimmer."

maybe the best of both worlds what do you think?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8268862#post8268862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alwest45
Yes, I've fixed the math error. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm really interested in specifics but I cannot decipher this: Most Becketts done even have tapered transitions. Could you explain in more detail what you meant? If you know if real world examples that's helpful too.

Al
sk1220_1.jpg


Thats a Barr. Theyre one of the better beckett skimmers out there, but notice where it goes from body to neck, theres a flange, and not a cone?

At that point, bubbles get stuck, and stick together. Thats why you get burping in becketts, becaues bubbles combine before hitting the neck. Needlewheel skimmers have constantly been tweaked and improved to make them more efficient. Rather than dealing with their design issues, beckett manufacturers add bigger pumps.
 
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