Before I pull the trigger...

[Tripwyr]

I'm currently planning a 7.5 gallon cube Dwarf Seahorse tank. I just want to make sure there is nothing I've forgotten or failed to discover in reading every article on several different sites. Current plan:

• 7.5 gallon starfire cube (PicO)
• 4 gallon cube sump (Do!Aqua)
• ReefSaver dry rock
• Dry sand
• Upflow Algae Scrubber
• Protein Skimmer - either a gnome glass (so I can run 24/7 without killing brine) or a pipeless CADlights (only at night)
• Mame Overflow (either this or a bulkhead screen, not decided)

Livestock:

• ~15-20 Dwarf Seahorses
• 3 Sexy Shrimp
• Macro Algae
• Gorgonians
• Ricordea
• Snails

I want a sump for the flexibility in filtration, so I added an algae scrubber to handle the increased nutrient load. I'd like to run a skimmer, but I want to avoid skimming out/killing food, which is why I chose the airstone powered gnome skimmer. Alternatively, I can run a skimmer only at night but fear this may be somewhat futile as DOCs from the messy SHs will decay before the skimmer gets a chance.

Now my questions. Would dwarf seahorses fed on Nannochloropsis-enriched copepods (bi-daily) and freshly hatched (unenriched) baby brine shrimp (daily) be healthy? Enriching brine shrimp is a bit of a pain, but I will do it if it benefits the health of the dwarves. My feeding schedule would likely be freshly hatched BBS every morning, and enriched copepods every other evening. I may be able to hatch extra brine shrimp on the alternate evenings.

Will the sexy shrimp be OK with the dwarves? They are always 0 risk on compatibility charts, but I worry they may deplete the water column of food if they eat the BBS. I plan to spot feed them 1 pellet each daily.

Should I worry about the return pump killing too many BBS/pods? If so, I may be able to devise a recirculating system to bypass the tank for a few hours after each feeding. The algae scrubber will likely be in tank to provide filtration when the skimmer is off/sump bypassed. I will have no filter sock/floss.

Finally, does anybody know where I can find captive bred dwarf seahorses in Canada? I'd prefer to buy from a reputable source.

Thanks for reading

 

[rayjay]

Dwarfs haven't been available much in Canada.
Sometimes you can get Ken at Sea U Marine in Markham Ontario to bring some in along with an erectus order from seahorsecorral.com in Florida but they are VERY expensive by the time they get to us here.
Lately I haven't even seen wild caught dwarfs available.
Find out availability before you proceed to set up.
I imported some a few years ago and my COST ended up over $30 each. A store needs to make money on the sell on top of that.

 

[Tripwyr]

Dwarfs haven't been available much in Canada.
Sometimes you can get Ken at Sea U Marine in Markham Ontario to bring some in along with an erectus order from seahorsecorral.com in Florida but they are VERY expensive by the time they get to us here.
Lately I haven't even seen wild caught dwarfs available.
Find out availability before you proceed to set up.
I imported some a few years ago and my COST ended up over $30 each. A store needs to make money on the sell on top of that.

Yes, since posting I've been reading more on seahorse.org and noticed the availability problems in Canada and Europe. I saw a post from you in 2010 saying that they were not yet available at all, so it is good to hear there has at least been progress.

Now I'm not sure what the mark up is, but $60 each is doable, it just means I need to do it right the first time. Regardless, I'll have to figure out the supply issue. Most of my plans for this tank are planned regardless (greenwater, copepods for reef tank).

Assuming I can acquire the dwarves, how does the rest of my plan look? I had thought that BBS daily and enriched greenwater raised copepods bi-daily would be enough for healthy dwarves, but reading deeper I'm seeing most of the successful keepers feeding more than that; mysis nauplii, several types of pod, even live oyster larvae. Will I be able to keep my dwarves healthy on just BBS and pods? I'd like to keep mysis as timinnl has, and I'll remove the sexy shrimp if they devour the adults and/or nauplii as peppermints did; however, I'm not sure that I'll be able to do this early on.

I may crosspost this over to the dwarf section on the org as well for some more specific advice.

 

[rayjay]

For me, I saw no need of a skimmer when water changes were so easy in such a small tank. I used only a little live rock for biological filter, open ended air lines for circulation, and plastic decor/hitches in a bare bottom tank.
The mysid shrimp are kept right in the tank, producing food on an ongoing basis.
Unless you have a variety of different live algae, the pods would not IMO, be considered to be enriched. There is no one algae with all the good properties.
Myself, I use Dan's Feed and Algamac 3050 for enrichment for all live foods.
Copepod production is slow so plan on a fairly large set up even for a supply to just augment the enriched bbs.
Many have succeeded with just using enriched bbs and nothing else.
What I would suggest is to just start with a basic dwarf tank and see how it goes, as you can always add the rest later on.
Don't forget, regardless of how you set up, you need to remove the uneaten bbs before adding the new enriched supply as the enrichment doesn't last long and you don't want the dwarfs still feeding on the nutritionally depleted bbs.
Occasionally wild caught dwarfs were available when Zena (Zenafish) would import an order and sell off what she didn't want for herself. I think they went for around $25 each back then.

 

[DanU]

I would put all filtration in the sump. This way it can all run full blast at cleaning up the water and not worry about the seahorses or fry getting caught up in the pump intakes. I would also use a filter sock to catch the artemia leaving the tank and entering the sump. During feedings, reduce flow and have the circulation primarily from airlines with a trickle from the sump, during non feeding and overnight you want to turn up the flow as much as possible to flush out uneaten artemia.

Artemia needs to be enriched. Newly hatched artemia doesn't have an adequate nutritional profile for them. Nanno will not be good enough for an enrichment for the artemia.

I use a 60 - 65 gallon fiberglass round tub filled to 40 gallons with a sump for our zosterae tank. It has been running several years with a self sustaining population and enough for our sales. We feed only enriched artemia and live mysids which they periodically feed on.

I like the algae scrubber. I am not familiar with the protein skimmer, we run one rated for 180 gallons and pull lots of junk. I expect the algae scrubber would reduce protein productivity but would still run one.

Anywhere water moves out of the tank or into a pump needs to be covered with some type of screening material. We use 670 micron screening which prevents the fry from going through but allows most of the artemia to pass through. Surface area needs to be large on the screen or the seahorses will stuck with the suction effect.

Dan

 

[Tripwyr]

Both of you mentioned airlines for circulation, should these be used instead of a small powerhead? Do you ever have issues with salt creep? When I had an airline in my QT tank, it caused 1/4" thick cakes of salt on every surface within days.

For me, I saw no need of a skimmer when water changes were so easy in such a small tank. I used only a little live rock for biological filter, open ended air lines for circulation, and plastic decor/hitches in a bare bottom tank.

I've always had success both with and without skimmers, but I think having one would be beneficial in the DSH tank. I've read that all SHs are messy eaters, masticating their food and passing small (now inedible) particles through the gills. These particles would then freely decay if not removed by a skimmer.

After reading about successful DSH tanks, I'm thinking I may go barebottom as well. I dislike the appearance of it, but I feel that until I've been successful it is probably better to remove as many failure points as possible. I think I'll be stocking the tank with some dry rock, a sturdy red branching macroalgae I already have growing in my reef, some larger-leafed halimeda I also have in my tank, and some artificial hitches.

Unless you have a variety of different live algae, the pods would not IMO, be considered to be enriched. There is no one algae with all the good properties.
Myself, I use Dan's Feed and Algamac 3050 for enrichment for all live foods.
Copepod production is slow so plan on a fairly large set up even for a supply to just augment the enriched bbs.

My plan was to culture copepods in a 10 gallon tank with nanno and iso phyto cultures, but it is starting to sound like even this will be nutritionally deficient. I think I may just culture copepods with nanno and feed them as a treat rather than a regularly scheduled staple. I don't like mono feeding, even if it is nutritionally complete.

It looks like I can buy a year or more supply of Dan's Feed for less than it would cost me to set up an iso culture, and Dan's Feed is obviously much more nutritionally complete. I will definitely enrich with Dan's instead of greenwater/iso.

Don't forget, regardless of how you set up, you need to remove the uneaten bbs before adding the new enriched supply as the enrichment doesn't last long and you don't want the dwarfs still feeding on the nutritionally depleted bbs.

I would also use a filter sock to catch the artemia leaving the tank and entering the sump. During feedings, reduce flow and have the circulation primarily from airlines with a trickle from the sump, during non feeding and overnight you want to turn up the flow as much as possible to flush out uneaten artemia.

Is Dan's suggestion sufficient for removal of uneaten BBS, or will I also need to net them out somehow? I could easily use a DC controllable return pump and have the controller automatically turn down my flow before feeding, and restore flow 4-5 hours after.

I would put all filtration in the sump. This way it can all run full blast at cleaning up the water and not worry about the seahorses or fry getting caught up in the pump intakes.

My plan was to put the algae scrubber in the tank, with all other filtration in the sump. The scrubber is air driven so flow is minimal, and it uses no impeller so it can't kill livestock. I could put a screen over it to prevent fry from wandering in. In the sump I was planning to put a skimmer (originally planned air driven, but I think I'll use a needle wheel since I'm filtering out the BBS anyway), filter sock (by your recommendation), and Seachem Matrix (for additional denitrification).

Anywhere water moves out of the tank or into a pump needs to be covered with some type of screening material. We use 670 micron screening which prevents the fry from going through but allows most of the artemia to pass through. Surface area needs to be large on the screen or the seahorses will stuck with the suction effect.

The tank will be drilled near the top and water will drain through a 1.5" bulkhead screen, which I will cover with a 670 micro screen (removable for cleaning). I should be able to DIY a mountable screen with magnets for this purpose.

The mysid shrimp are kept right in the tank, producing food on an ongoing basis.

Can these be easily found live in Canada? I think I'll set up the tank with just the mysids and macro to allow it to stabilize before adding the DSHs.

 

[rayjay]

I don't know of a supply for mysids in Canada. I started my cultures by removing some from one of my reef tanks as they are just naturally present in those.
Small rubble rather than larger rock pieces helps with the cannibalization that occurs.
The filter sock is sufficient for bbs removal, but I would clean it every day because the small size of the bbs would mean fast decay, producing nutrients in the water you don't want.
After seeing a research study, I started using trays to culture pods and found they worked just great. You can stack a few trays using dish racks from Walmart.
Did you use open ended air lines in the QT tank or air stones? Use open ended.
I didn't use a skimmer because it was only a 5g and a 2g tank involved with no sump. Room was at a premium so water changes worked great for me.

 

[DanU]

Is Dan's suggestion sufficient for removal of uneaten BBS, or will I also need to net them out somehow?

It works for us. The live mysids also eat the artemia so the tank stays cleaner with them in it. Each setup is different. The cover for our drain is 6 inches in diameter and has 1 1/2 inches width of screen. So there is roughly 24 inches or so or area so it minimizes the suction effect on the zosterae.

My plan was to put the algae scrubber in the tank, with all other filtration in the sump. The scrubber is air driven so flow is minimal, and it uses no impeller so it can't kill livestock. I could put a screen over it to prevent fry from wandering in.

If it is not covered, you will get some wandering in. Even adults can get caught in it.

Have you ever seen H. zosterae in person? I ask because almost everyone is taken aback at first on how small they really are.

Dan

 

[Tripwyr]

I don't know of a supply for mysids in Canada. I started my cultures by removing some from one of my reef tanks as they are just naturally present in those.
Small rubble rather than larger rock pieces helps with the cannibalization that occurs.

I found that Reefaquatica offers them, but $150 for 250 is steep. I'll see if I can find any from local reefers.

The filter sock is sufficient for bbs removal, but I would clean it every day because the small size of the bbs would mean fast decay, producing nutrients in the water you don't want.

It works for us. The live mysids also eat the artemia so the tank stays cleaner with them in it. Each setup is different

Sounds like this is the best solution. I'll use a 200 micron filter sock mounted insump at the end of the outlet.

After seeing a research study, I started using trays to culture pods and found they worked just great. You can stack a few trays using dish racks from Walmart.

The 10g tank would have allowed me to dual culture rotifers and copepods together. Have you found that the pod cultures were more prolific in the tray design? Is it significantly more effort to keep the setup clean?

Did you use open ended air lines in the QT tank or air stones? Use open ended.

It was open ended. Are airlines even necessary? What if I provided flow using a DC return pump and a spray bar?

I didn't use a skimmer because it was only a 5g and a 2g tank involved with no sump. Room was at a premium so water changes worked great for me.

I have already planned for a skimmer, and it can only be helpful in my build.

The cover for our drain is 6 inches in diameter and has 1 1/2 inches width of screen. So there is roughly 24 inches or so or area so it minimizes the suction effect on the zosterae.

My current plan is to use a 1" bulkhead with a basic bulkhead screen. Over this I would use coated magnets to mount the screen, allowing me to make them any size or make multiple screens for cleaning. Hopefully 1" will be enough since my 7.5g would presumably have less flow than your drain.

If it is not covered, you will get some wandering in. Even adults can get caught in it.

Have you ever seen H. zosterae in person? I ask because almost everyone is taken aback at first on how small they really are.

I understand how small they are, and I will probably screen the scrubber anyway. What I'm not sure about is the actual threat should a SH wander in. Essentially the scrubber is simply a roughed up surface with air bubbling over it which grows algae. There are no moving parts, and they are actually designed to allow pods and other life to freely move in and out of the scrubber (live food in a reef tank).

Thank you guys for all the help, I'll overview what I've changed in the next post.

 

[Tripwyr]

Basic tank stats:

• 7.5 Gallon Starfire Cube
• 4 Gallon Cube Sump
• 1" Bulkhead Overflow
  - 670 micron screen
  - 200 micron filter sock
• Spraybar Return
• Bare Bottom

Filtration:

• Upflow Algae Scrubber
• Protein Skimmer
• Dry Rock
• SeaChem Matrix in Mesh Bag

Equipment:

• DC Controllable Return Pump
• NanoBox Mini Tide LED

Food:

• Enriched Brine Shrimp
• Dan's Feed Artemia Enrichment
• Mysid Nauplii

Have I missed anything?

 

[rayjay]

A skimmer is ALWAYS a help to any tank, but I just didn't have room for it.
Trays did work out better and definitely easier for cleaning, plus, they didn't use as much water, even though I use DIY water.
Mixed cultures do not work out well, especially if rotifers are a contaminant as they take over everything.
Air lines are NOT necessary, just anything you can use to get sufficient water movement for proper gas exchange and can protect from seahorses being damaged.
I personally find more salt creep with spraybars than open ended air lines.
I also use open ended air lines in each culture container I have.
The 1" bulkhead should provide enough flow but you will need to have a large surface area of screening out around it to effectively reduce the suction effect, as Dan has mentioned.

 

[Tripwyr]

Trays did work out better and definitely easier for cleaning, plus, they didn't use as much water, even though I use DIY water.

That is interesting, I will have to keep that in mind.

Mixed cultures do not work out well, especially if rotifers are a contaminant as they take over everything.

MBIsite seemed to suggest that rotifers and copepods could be cultured together without any issues, but brine shrimp contamination would take over both. Either way, I don't think I'll be culturing them in the beginning.

Air lines are NOT necessary, just anything you can use to get sufficient water movement for proper gas exchange and can protect from seahorses being damaged.
I personally find more salt creep with spraybars than open ended air lines.

The spraybars will be submerged, the goal is simply to spread the flow out over an area rather than a point source return. I don't see how this could cause salt creep, unless you meant an above water spraybar?

The intank algae scrubber will ensure the tank is always sufficiently oxygenated, even when the sump/skimmer is off.

The 1" bulkhead should provide enough flow but you will need to have a large surface area of screening out around it to effectively reduce the suction effect, as Dan has mentioned.

This should be doable, I can easily make the screen much larger than the bulkhead itself.

 

[rayjay]

For me, I grow out the brine shrimp in 26g rubbermaid containers, and if I get rotifer contamination, it quickly spreads, increasing in numbers to the point the brine die off. I think it's an oxygen thing but don't know for sure.
Also, when rotifers get in the nitokra lacustris, it wipes them out as well.
I keep small back up cultures for my pods because of this.
I've been growing out brine shrimp for almost 20 yrs now, in large quantities, and I've never had them take over ANY culture. Rotifers have at times wrecked every culture I've ever had going, including the phyto, even when it's in a different room. Figure that one out.
Just a note on skimmers, they DO NOT provide oxygenation to the water.
The bubbles are so small, and they attract the dissolved organics and are coated so that there is no interaction providing oxygen to the tank.
Surface agitation, however accomplished, is what provides gas exchange so the scrubber should help that way I would think. I've never used one myself.

 

[Tripwyr]

Just a note on skimmers, they DO NOT provide oxygenation to the water.
The bubbles are so small, and they attract the dissolved organics and are coated so that there is no interaction providing oxygen to the tank.
Surface agitation, however accomplished, is what provides gas exchange so the scrubber should help that way I would think. I've never used one myself.

This doesn't really make sense, and I think you might be referring to Eric Borneman's findings. The skimmer does not increase oxygenation above atmospheric levels, but it provides gas exchange the same way any other bubbles or surface agitation would. Dissolved organics are attracted to any air-water interface, they do not discriminate on size or shape.

In the case of a skimmer in a sump, 99% of the time the water will already be at equilibrium before it reaches the skimmer (due to the gas exchange provided by an overflow). However, that 1% of the time when a bacterial bloom consumes all of the oxygen, the skimmer becomes invaluable in oxygenating water.

 

[rayjay]

I disagree, and I've not ever seen anything re Borneman and skimmers. The small bubbles in the skimmer have so many hits with the dissolved organics in it's travel, and such a large percentage of surface area that is covered, that the gas exchange can't take place like it does at the waters surface.
Other air water interface does not get this concentration of organics coating it.
Tanks with low pH due to insufficient gas exchange have not been helped with the addition of large skimmers even though the air supply was brought in from outdoors. It took better surface turmoil and/or better air supply to the surface to bring the pH back up, indicating proper gas exchange.
(This assuming of course that the alkalinity is proper to begin with)
I agree that an overflow can be a part of the gas exchange but it still isn't as good as the surface turbulence.
Many problem tanks have hoods or tops that limit the air supply for the gas exchange and the overflows don't help them sufficiently.

 

[rayjay]

Ken at Sea U Marine has just got a shipment of erectus and dwarfs in.

 

[Tripwyr]

I'll give him a call tomorrow afternoon. While my tank is not ready yet, it is good to know that there is some availability.

 

[rayjay]

At least you can find what he is asking for them.