best salt?

[Rhodesholar]

Howard,

Found it. :dance:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-02/eb/index.php

Excerpt>>>>>
Ironically, and perhaps because of its rate of depletion in the small water volumes of aquaria, natural seawater levels of alkalinity are, in my experience, suboptimal. I prefer to keep my aquaria at levels much higher than seawater, and have seen no downside to doing so. On the contrary, if my tanks fall to seawater levels (about 2.9 meq/l), the tanks tend to look very poorly indeed. I strive for alkalinity levels somewhere between 4 and 5 meq/l, :eek1: and the results of such elevated levels seem to indicate that reef aquaria thrive with the additional availability of carbonates. Furthermore, it helps to buffer against swings in pH values.>>>>>>

There is another article that explains calcifiaciton in detail and how elevated ALK helps in the process. I will have to go on hunt of that one.

Since I am at work I have to get some work done and I tend to have to many things going at once that I mix up sources.

 

[HowardW]

<<< Ironically, and perhaps because of its rate of depletion in the small water volumes of aquaria, natural seawater levels of alkalinity are, in my experience, suboptimal. >>>


Yes, that's what I was talking about. He basically says NSW levels (alk) are hard to maintain due to the rate of depletion, not necessarily because they are not ultimately optimal.

 

[Rhodesholar]

Now we are getting into trecherous waters as Boomer and I have discussed this at some length. "I" (don't hit me boomer ) find my tank looks better at 10-11DKH. I have read alot of research where ALK at those levels has advanteges in growth and coloration. As Boomer stated it is artifical and I agree but isn't that what we are doing anyway?

As I said there is another article that explains (if memory serves me) at higher ALK the coral doesn't have work as hard to calcify and thus grows faster and more colorful.

As far K's I couldn't agree with you more Boomer. The issue there is that reefers will forgo the overall well being of the coral for enhanced color since it is known that the best spectrum for Acros growth and health is 6500 to 10k and I think it is actually even lower then 6500k. I can't tell you the lumps I have taken on that one.

 

[Boomer]

In short to be honest it is an opinion based on "ones tanks" apparentness of a need to run at some other level other than NSW. I have seen some tanks that will knock your shocks off and do not nun anything more than normal levels. Allot may be due to what a tanks chemistry is, its occupants, interreactions, lighting and things we do not understand. For just one example ; it *may* not be high alk at all but the higher CO2 you get with higher Alk.

 

[Rhodesholar]

Boomer,

I agree. There are so many variables it is hard to say definitively. I am layman, so I have to go on the research of those who have far more knowledge and experience on these matters then I. Individuals such as your self. Then you find even those in the know do not agree. Check out the debate between Shimek and Goemans for starters.

IMO it is extremely difficult if not impossible to completely provide a 100% NSW environment in our closed systems, so therefore skewing the H2O parameters outside of NSW may prove beneficial for reasons you mentioned, or not. Seems no one knows for sure. One thing I very rarely ever hear mentioned which is quite important IMO is ORP/Redox. You never hear it mentioned. Perhaps that's the key? I don't know.

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9908191#post9908191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodesholar

Here is one such article:
http://www.reefcorner.com/Manual/sps_coloration.htm

Rhodes, do you know who wrote that article? I've run sps systems higher than NSW, and at NSW. I have had excellent colorization regarding. I find these statement funny. Light and nutrients are the logical factors involving sps colorization. Obviously, low alk is going to stress and one won't get good colorization. But I've not seen any discussion why higher alk would contribute to greater colorization. Sure there'd be higher levels of CO2 but at higher pH would they all be bicarbonates? Also, there's quite a bit of research that shows that photosynthesis and calcification process benefit each other...

 

[coralfish]

"I have another article by Eric Borneman where he clearly states that NSW levels are not optimal in a closed environement"

Yea, ok...BTW as Boomer stated, all his tanks crashed. So this apparently doesn't work.

Also, what about all the Florida SPS that he allowed to die? I don't put much faith into someone who only knows how to write about things that apparently don't work.

As far as the best salt....you just have to find what works for best for your tank and your maintenance habits.

 

[Rhodesholar]

Stoney,

No I don't know the author of that particular article.

I originally got the idea from an article I read and I will be damned if I can find it. It explained calcification and alkalinity and mentioned that SPS kept at higher alkalinity use less energy to grow. It was a very high level scientific article written by a PHD in the field that got into exactly what is happening within an SPS coral and how the the zooanthelle (sp) reacts to water parameters and lighting all at a molecular level and the process of how the coral adds skeletal growth through calcification etc.

From many sources of either fellow reefers or knowledgable people in the field I am yet to hear of any detrimental effect of running alk at 10-11DKH (sorry can't get used to the meq/l) and have heard nothing but positive results. Am I saying NSW level are sub par and recipe for failure? Certainly not. The only reason I am so attimate about this is how quickly there are those to refute it when evidence points at the very least it is not detrimental and further evidence point that it is actually beneficial. Let's just say that it may be a piece of a puzzle that implemented in concert with other parameters that yet escape us it may lead to quite positive results in keeping SPS. It may be total speculation on my part. I just believe the door should be kept open on the matter.

 

[Rhodesholar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9912348#post9912348 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralfish
"I have another article by Eric Borneman where he clearly states that NSW levels are not optimal in a closed environement"

Yea, ok...BTW as Boomer stated, all his tanks crashed. So this apparently doesn't work.

Also, what about all the Florida SPS that he allowed to die? I don't put much faith into someone who only knows how to write about things that apparently don't work.

As far as the best salt....you just have to find what works for best for your tank and your maintenance habits.

Coralfish,

Did you read my other posts? He is not the only one advocating elevated alk levels.

Also please provide the link where "all his tanks crashed" and I will immediatly stop using him as reference as he is incompetent if that is the case. I have never read any such thing anywhere. The Florida SPS thing I did read something on and there was alott of "Spin" on that if memory serves me. Please provide any information on that matter as well, perhaps I am misinformed and as stated will no longer use him as a reference.

Ok how about Julian Sprung? He have any credibility? Recommends a DKH of 10-12 as stated at Macna last year especially for the growth of coralline. Go figure.

As I told Boomer disagree with me. I welcome it, but I am not pulling these levels out thin air. There is scientific research that proves elevated ALK levels are beneficial. From now on I will be sure to book mark and reference them and even then no one will believe me.

 

[stony_corals]

I'd be interested if you can find those articles. That is something that I've thought about to, since the coral will increase the saturation level of aragonite (there are varying levels of saturation) near it's skeleton and if the water column has higher saturation levels, then the coral will expend less energy raising this level. I do not see how this would effect colorization, other than having more relative energy.

I have had some RTN once alk gets around 10-11 dkh. For some zeo systems, this happens around 9 dkh. There is some anecdotal experience that higher levels of alk can cause RTN.

 

[Boomer]

Rhode

Also please provide the link where "all his tanks crashed"

What It is every where just like his Florida thing. He is "claiming someone broke into his house, but no signs of any breakin. He says they/he/she drained like 400 gal out of his reef tank and then filled it with FW and left, with no signs they were there. Yah, right. He even spoke about this at the western conference where a number of people got up and walked on him. He has threads on Marine Depot saying or was saying he is giving up the hobby. When whined enough and enough people felt bad enough for him and begged him to say in the hobby he said Ok I stay, due to all the great support I'm getting. All a flippin setup.


alott of "Spin" on that if memory serves me.

No spin and is why he will not talk about it. If nothing happened or all matters where resolved why does he refuse to explain the know incident which is a matter of public record ?

As I told Boomer disagree with me

I said up to 11 and that is elevated, so where is all this disagreement NSW is 2.25-2.50 meq / l and 11 = 3.92 meq
/ l

There is scientific research that proves elevated ALK levels are beneficial.

Where

Ok, I'll help you as you are in need

Bicarbonate Addition Promotes Coral Growth
http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_44/issue_3/0716.pdf




Julian Sprung? He have any credibility? Recommends a DKH of 10-12

Be careful how you speak there buddy, I don't want you digging yourself a hole

I edited the Chem section of Julian's and Charles's book TRA for the fall up-date and it is 7- 10 dKH. And in the unupdated it is 7-10.

Akalinity values in the aquarium should be maintained between 2.5 and 3.5 meq / l (7-10dKH)[b/] page 171

Stony

There is some anecdotal experience that higher levels of alk can cause RTN.

Yes, that is true, so call it "Alkalinity Burning" and may be to do with the higher OH-


Sure there'd be higher levels of CO2 but at higher pH would they all be bicarbonates?

No, as pH rises the bicarb is less and there is a rise in the carbonate with even less CO2 % wise. Bicarb is the highest % a pH of lower than 7.5 and steadily drops as pH goes up, being replaced by carbonate at higher pH's

With that said the question you have is for example;

pH 8.3, Alk 2.5 meq / = 0.42 ppm CO2 NSW

Ok lets just raise the pH to 8.5 = .23 ppm CO2

Now lets have that high pH of 8.5 and raise the Alk to 5 meq/ l= 0.46 ppm CO2. The same as NSW

Now lets keep that more normal pH of 8.3 and raise the Alk to 5 meq / l = .85 ppm CO2 almost double NSW.

If we go with the max Alk of 3.93 meq / l (11 dKH) and pH of 8.3 = 0.66 ppm CO2 or 65 % higher than NSW.

 

[Billybeau1]

Geez, I'm at 12 dkh and I still can't get my pH up past 8.2

Darn CO2......

Are we having fun yet ? :lol:

I'm still with ya Rhodes.

 

[Kolognekoral]

Just to return the boomerrang, the current vogue in Germany is to change brands often! Based on the deep theory that, what one salt fails in, the next will make up for. I have been using this method for the last year and, yes, I do notice a general improvement and, what is more important, no negative effects.

I remember, way back in the marine aquarium stoneage, one chose a salt and stayed to it. At that time, the mixes were relatively shakey to say the least, but, interestingly enough, one of the first is still with us and very much favoured; Instant Ocean.

I regularly use Instant Ocean, Red Sea (not the coral special, as I do not require extra calcium), Tropic Marin (current favourite), Reef Crystals (used once) and Aqua Medic (least favourite, something's missing in my opinion, but what?) We, also, ahve the new mix from Zeovit, Reefers Salt, which has received good marks, but I have no experience.

Now, TM is the most expensive, but seems to have the best mix for my conditions. I use the water straight from the tap, as it is rich in minerals and has no chemical additives, excessive organics, etc. A rare luxury, these days. I may bottle it. I had used RO, when I first started this aquarium, about 7 years ago, but never noticed a change when I stopped. Actually, the corals seemed to grow better, but this could be my vivid imagination.

 

[HowardW]

<<< Again, it is the reefer trying to out do mother nature She always wins >>>


I hope this doesn't go to Boomers head, but the above quote is one of the best I've read on RC, and should be referred to every time a reefer thinks he/she has a better water quality plan than then oceans where the specimens we now keep have survived for millions of years.

 

[Rhodesholar]

I must really like abuse.

I did not read anywhere about the Eric Borneman issue you mentioned in my cyber travels Boomer. I will do some research on the matter so I am better informed. Thank you for pointing it out because I was not aware. Ok, as stated I will not reference him any longer.

At Macna Julian Sprung recommended DKH of 10-12 especially for coralline growth. I have a link to the notes on my home computer.

When I say "elevated" I mean above NSW levels.

Yes you said 11 at the top of acceptable, I was referring to Ca++ above 380 since I run 450 and that it was no caveat for growth at that level.

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_riddle_090599.html

Excerpt>>>>What is the relationship between lighting and alkalinity levels?
We recommend that alkalinity levels should be around 3.6 meq/l. Strong lighting may promote photosynthesis and hence calcification thus depleteing alkalinity and calcium. Alkalinity levels may also drop due to its destruction during nitrification.

I am still looking for the other article and I will find it.....eventually.

You know I have a full time gig.

 

[Rhodesholar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9912206#post9912206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Rhodes, do you know who wrote that article?

Yes it is by Dana Riddle and Andy Amussen

 

[Rhodesholar]

Sorry link doesn't work.

 

[Boomer]

What link Rhode my link ? It works fo me. It is a PDF, you must have Arcobat Reader, which is a free progaram. If it is your link it works

Here is the abstract



Bicarbonate addition promotes coral growth

Abstractâ€"The addition of 2 mM bicarbonate to aquaria containing tropical ocean water and branches of Porites por-ites caused a doubling of the skeletal growth rate of the coral. Nitrate or ammonium addition (20 mM) to oligotrophic sea-water caused a significant reduction in coral growth, but when seawater containing the extra bicarbonate was supplemented with combined nitrogen, no depression of the higher growth rate was evident. We infer that (1) the present dissolved in-organic carbon (DIC) content of the ocean limits coral growth, (2) this limitation is exacerbated by nitrate and ammonium, and (3) adding DIC ncreases coral calcification rates and con-fers protection against nutrient enrichment.

Dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) is used by all hard cor-als for growth of CaCO3 skeletons. Hermatypic corals (reef- building corals that harbor zooxanthellae) also require DIC or photosynthesis. Until recently, the general view has been that, at concentrations greater than 2 mM, DIC in seawater is in ample supply compared with other essential solutes such as nitrate and phosphate and trace elements such as iron, zinc, and silicon.

There is, however, a growing aware-ness(Raven 1993) that the supply of DIC limits photosyn-thesis in planktonic algae, seagrasses (Beer and Rehnberg 1997), coccolithophores (Merrett et al. 1993; Israel and Gon-zales 1996), and macroalgae(Johnston et al. 1992). Several authors (Muscatine et al. 1989b; Weis et al. 1989; Dubinsky et al. 1990; Lesser et al. 1994) have speculated on DIC lim-itation in coral. The only study that tested experimentally the effect of adding DIC (Burris et al. 1983) focused only on photosynthesis and was inconclusive.


Dissolved in-organic carbon (DIC) = CO2, H2CO3, HCO3- and CO3--

 

[Rhodesholar]

No boomer the other link I tried to paste.

 

[Boomer]

I forgot that addtion of 2 mM would bring the Alk up to 11 dKH.