big crazy plan? help!

[cbreps]

my SW experience is limited but i love to plan and build things. mostly reptile enclosures so far. i have a 75 gallon tank i am planning on setting up in my home office. my experience so far is a 12 nano and a 3 week old 20 gallon with very simple filtration.

i had this brainstorm the other nite of running water out of the 75 down into the basement. i have a room next to the utility room that i can use. it has concrete floors and could take all the thrills and spills of water changes and such! in this room i would like to run the water into a 75 gallon plastic horse trough which will have a pump to pump it back to the 75 gallon display tank.

the filtration (maybe a wet/dry filter with skimmer )could go over or next to the trough and spill in. my idea was to have a second trough next to it to do salt mixing and water changes. i could have a top off system and i am planning on putting a RO unit in there with storage tank. the other reason i would like to have this trough in the basement is to cool off the water. i am planning on keeping seahorses and would like to get down around 72-74 (the office can run up to 78-80 in the summer. the utility room is always about 60-65.

one potential problem is that the utility room and the office are at opposite ends of the house. there would probably be about 60ft of hosing (or solid pipe) one way with very little grade.

so here are a couple questions:

1. am i nuts to think this will work?
2. will the water temp stabilize? i was thinking of having heaters in both vessels.
3. how big of a pump would i have to use?
4. does water flow out of a tank as fast as it is pumped in? or does a pump have a way of restricting flow to make this work?
5. assuming this would work could i also insert a 55 gallon tank as a refugium in the line, either in the utility room or office? i have room to put both tanks side by side. in the interest of cooling would it be better to have more than half of the total gallons of the sytem in the cooler room....i think i just answered that one.
6. does it matter where i put the live rock? could i put it all in the refugium and the trough? so that the display tank is mostly grasses? and open sand bed?

thank you so much in advance for any advice you can give! john

 

[Chrsnwk]

1. No
2. Maybe
3. Depends what turnover rate you want, check flow curves for different pumps.
4. Yes, averaged over time. (assouming an internal or external overflow is used) if it doesn't, something somewhere is going to overflow.
5. yes, you can do an inline refugium, 55 gallons is huge though.
7. not really.... but if you are only using live rock for the purpose of a framework for bacteria to grow on and not to beautify your tank and provide shelter for critters and fish, you could get away with much cheaper base rock seeded with a small chunk or 2 of actual live rock.

Good Luck!

 

[douggiestyle]

you have some good concepts going. first having a grass dominated tank will make things very different then a coral based tank. some will be the same. most likely a dsb to give something for the grasses to take root in. good lighting t5 i think would be ok. sump and wet dry would not be needed imo. low water flow in tank. maybe a canister filter and hob skimmer. depending on the biome you are trying to reproduce, temp may not need to be as low as you think. the use of live rock would not be needed (imo) you are going to have grass using all available nitrates at a very steady rate (given that they have the proper light levels). in fact many heavily planted tanks require additions to be made to keep up with plant growth. plant growth will be required because if they start to die then your nitrates will spike. this could be a very nice tank, one that ive often thought of doing.

a setup similar to a carribean seagrass bed would be nice.

 

[hllywd]

The water will flow out as fast as it's pumped in as long as the drains are rated at a higher total flow rate than the pump is rated for and there are no restrictions. The pump can be gated back or partially diverted to lessen the flow rate as well.

Tim

 

[douggiestyle]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/sl/index.php

finally found it, good article for what you are planning.

 

[cbreps]

hey thanks for all the info! i got alot to learn and there is so much info on here. i saw the DIY section that lists projects and suppliers so i will check out the overflows. i didnt even know what that was, i just figured i would have the lfs drill a hole or two on the side to get the water out and into my drain pipe.

1. when you say the drain must be rated at a higher flow rate than the pump, will that basically be just the diameter of the pipe or does length of run and drop come into play as well? and does the pipe have to be sloped down or can it be level assuming its dropping 5 ft to the basement area then another 4 ft into the trough once it travels the 50-60ft? does gravity just push it along at a steady rate? or does it slow as the water moves horizontally?

2. when the water flows back into the tank (and refugium) does it go first into a box and then overflow into the tank or right into one of those directional "spouts"?

3. after looking at the tiny refugiums that hang on the tanks i undertand what you mean by my 55g being "huge". i just have it sitting here all lonely. maybe it will just be hooked up as another display (obviously assuming that what goes in has the same requirements as the first tank).

thanks again for all your help! john

 

[cbreps]

one more quick one....does restricting a pump wear it out faster?

 

[skydvr]

Having a 2 or 3 degree slope in the horizontal section will help keep things moving along.
I haven't looked into moving water this far along, so I'm not sure where to find the calculations, but with them you will be able to figure out what diameter pipe to use to get the desired flow rates.
You will also have to make sure the pump you choose can overcome the pump head and then calculate what the flow loss would be with the restrictions.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to figure out. If you really want to do it you can. You could also contact the manufacturers for help on pump selection.

I'd drill the tank for an overflow and use multiple outlets. If one of those got blocked up, that would be a lot of water on the floor.

Usually to an outlet of some sort.
You could build an outlet overflow box if the horses rrequire minimal currents, don't know much about sea horses.

Good luck and keep as posted. I'd love to see this in action.

 

[hllywd]

Here's my $.02 worth...

1.) If you use a 1" drain rated at 600 gph then you may have problems trying to use a 700 gph pump, tou can solve that by using a larger drain or multiples if you want more flow. Once the pipe leaves the tank, I would adapt to a larger diameter pipe draining to the sump. That again depends on the flow from all of you drains with som safety factor built in, the pipe will slow the flow as you use less slope. With that long of a run I'd say at least 2" PVC. It doesn't take much slope but I would argue it's necessary, 2" or 3" should be adequate to keep things moving.

2.) No need for an overflow box on the return. Use the "spout" to direct some current in you tank.

3.) A huge refugium shouldn't hurt anything, it will just be larger than what's really necessary. I don't see this as a problem just a little overkill.

As for your pump question, as far as I know it does not place any appreciable wear on the pump to gate it back some. Personally I'd size it so I didn't have to. Smaller pumps are cheaper and cost less to operate. Why buy a big pump, spend more money on the purchase, and jack your electric bill only to waste some of what you're paying for by gating it back?

Tim

 

[Chrsnwk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9424948#post9424948 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cbreps
one more quick one....does restricting a pump wear it out faster?

No, unless it's output is "severly" restricted or dead headed, or if the external pump relies on water to cool it, like the Poseidon (sp?) pumps.

HOWEVER ---

Never Never Never restrict the supply side of the pump. It will cavitate like crazy and will shorten the pump's life.

 

[douggiestyle]

John,

the info people are giving you is correct as far as i can tell, thats good.

but i think you really need to read the article ive linked and start doing some logical thinking. first and for most the tank you are planning on building (according to your original post) is basicly a refuge. and can be treated as such. having a grass tank will not require you to eliminate nutrients but the exact oposite. most likely no skimmer will be needed, exporting nutrients is not the idea. i truely believe you are heading in the wrong direction trying to design a planted tank using reef tank setups. they are completely different systems.

 

[cbreps]

thanks again to all for the info!

doug, i plan on reading that article now. i have been on the macro algae forum as well and i am playing with a 20g with macros to learn all i can. i do understand (now from your first post to me and some other stuff i read after your post) about possibly not needing a protien skimmer and other filtration and LR for that matter, so that the plants have nutrients. so i am with you now on that.

i just really want a way to have a display tank in my office and have all the pumps, water/salt mixing and water changes in a utility room where i can spill away and not get thrown into the doghouse with the wife. i also like the idea of having more total gallons to make the system more stable. i am now going to hold off on any filtration equipment until i learn more and get the system running and see what it needs. i have alot of room in there so i can add things after i get the basic set up going. maybe i wont need anything but a cannister filter.

from your post i think you will really like what i am envisioning setting up. i am a fan of the carribean and am working with a couple breeding groups of insular boas of that region and also cayman island iguanas. how cool would it be to also have a carribean marine set up as well? i have maps of that region in my office on the wall showing the different islands of where some of my boas are from......i know i am a geek! i also was looking at the mangrove trees and would love to have some of those as well. the 75 g and 55 g can go side by side in my office. the office is a front porch that is all windows and i get a nice dose of sunshine in the morning. i could open the blinds behind the 55g only and shine on some mangroves growing out of the top. i know there is alot to learn about them as well (placement, roots cracking tanks,etc.) and they will also be competing for nutrients. maybe i could put lagoon fish in this tank to create a wasteload for the complete system. i think small schooling fish would be cool! i dont want to mix plants or animals from different regions so i have alot to research.

i am also reading Reef Invertebrates, by Fenner and Calfo and just got to the "live sand section....and i see that refugiums theory is covered after that.

john

 

[douggiestyle]

ok. it seems like you have a plan. keep up the reading.
ive had a heavily planted fw tank. it was a discus tank. the plants were harder to take care of than the fish. just do your home work use logic and you will succeed. keep us posted.

 

[cbreps]

You could build an outlet overflow box if the horses rrequire minimal currents, don't know much about sea horses.

so the overflow box "slows" currents? also why are there "notches" cut out on the overflow boxes i see? couldnt you just have the water spill over the top?

 

[cbreps]

You could build an outlet overflow box if the horses rrequire minimal currents, don't know much about sea horses.

Good luck and keep as posted. I'd love to see this in action. [/B][/QUOTE]

oops, i didnt see the "reply with quote" feature..... but to add to my question....if you made the overflow box the full width of the top of the tank (the tank is 4ft long by 18"wide) would that keep the surface water cleaner? it would seem that the full width of the surface water (18")spilling over the top as opposed to a small box in the back would keep there from being any scum on top. thanks, john

 

[cbreps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9425108#post9425108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by skydvr
You could build an outlet overflow box if the horses rrequire minimal currents, don't know much about sea horses.

Good luck and keep as posted. I'd love to see this in action.

i see i screwed it up again....maybe this time will work

 

[cbreps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9408095#post9408095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
the use of live rock would not be needed (imo) you are going to have grass using all available nitrates at a very steady rate (given that they have the proper light levels).

but dont i need the live rock to produce the nitrate? i am going to go with a DSB, but if figured i would need live rock somewhere in the system or is the DSB doing all that? a small amount in the seahorse tank just for looks and then the rest in the second tank or in the 75 gallon trough for bio action. i was thinking by the time it gets back into the seahorse tank it would be nitrate rich for the grasses. thanks, john

 

[douggiestyle]

i would use a system for a fish only tank. i would use a canister filter and include some type of additional bio media in it as well as mech filter and carbon to keep the water clear. also would use a spray bar accessory for the return. now the one thing i gleened from that article i referenced, was that the grass do better with higher flow rates. but i dont think this would be 100% necessary. maybe a small power head connected to a timer to create some back and forth swaying of the grasses.