Black trigger has ick. Never had it before. How do I treat?
- Thread starter pennyguy23
- Start date
White Tiger
New member
OOOPPPPS!!!! I meant Ich-Attack, sorry for the mix-up.
arizona tech
New member
i tried ick attack it didnt work and i tried prevent ick the only attack was on my wallet and brain, hypo is the way to go, but if i had no qt i would try any reef safe med and hope for the best
ReefHotSpot
Registered Member
I agree that rid-ich is highly dubious. And, the idea that cleaner shrimp can do much for you is also dubious. Cleaner shrimp help when there is no apparent problem but once you start getting noticeable ich outbreaks then you've most likely crossed the threshold where cleaner shrimp can help. This probably isn't their fault though because they are relegated to treating the symptom and not the cause in most cases. Reef Safe ich products? Heard of many but don't know a single one. Freshwater dip, copper in a qt tank. Problem solved. And, of course, I could be selling your cleaner shrimp short.
All I can say. . .
We (aquarists) are always looking for a ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“faster,ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“easy,ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“convenientââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ or ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“short cutââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ way to get rid of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) from a reef tank. We got the reef setup and put fish in it and this disease got in. We know we can prevent Marine Ich (MI) from getting into our tanks by using a quarantine system. My display tanks have not had MI in them since 1970. But, as polls show, less than 35% of people filling out the polls on RC say they use a quarantine system. This majority finds diseased fish in their reef tanks and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to, or imagine they canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t, get the fish out of the tank for proper treatment of the fish and the tank. Whereââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the short cut? We arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t the only ones looking for this. . .
Aquaculturists of marine food fishes are looking for that same faster, easier, convenient, and short cut cure. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s been the pot oââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ gold chased for over 75 years. Take a moment and think what such a short cut cure would mean to the aquaculture industry; the professional public aquariums; and hobbyists around the world! If a cure came along that would be feasible and useful for all of us, we would be on it like hair on a gorilla. So why arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t all those ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“reef safeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ cures being used by everyone, all the time?
So far, aquarist come forward with good news and bad news about marine products that are supposedly ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“reef safeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ that will cure Marine Ich (MI) in their reef tanks. Some say they worked without harming their reef specimens. Others say it worked, but harmed some of their reef specimens. Others say it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work and either did no harm or did harm to their reef tank specimens. But, there are many questions that come with this mixed-bag testimony.
1. Do they know their fish actually had MI to being with?
2. Do we know their apparent success can be reproduced in different aquariums and in different systems?
3. What about others who claim they tried the same remedy and it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work for them?
4. Does the medication really claim it cures or kills or eradicates MI from the reef tank?
1. Many beginners claim they found a product that cured their reef fish, in the reef tank, of MI. Frankly, many of these people donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know what MI looks like. Their diagnosis is at best based upon photos or descriptions. I can accept their diagnosis when I have clinical proof. I want to know MI was the disease. I still get inquiries from people that say their fish has MI because it has a few white spots. Actually, it turns out their fish had a minor Lymphocystis infection. Since Lymphocystis can come and go, the cure they used didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t cure MI at all. What usually happens is that the aquarist sees spots, then pays close attention to the fish foods, nutrition and water quality and as a result of this high profile attention, the fish recovers from Lymphocystis on its own, having nothing to do with the reef-safe MI ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cure.ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢
Another group, what I call the semi-seasoned aquarist have seen MI in their or other tanks before. Like the person who gets bitten by a leopard, they see spots everywhere. As soon as a white spot, any white spot, shows up on their fish, ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œMy fish have Marine Ich.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚Â
These doubts leave a big gap in their testimony. What was really wrong with the fish to begin with? Diagnosis, even for this prevalent organism, isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t easy and canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t always be counted upon by those who claim the cure saved their fish.
2. Differences in systems seems to account for some successes and failures. The results in one aquarium differ from the results in another. This may not be definitively explained, except we know that every aquarium has its own set of microbes, organisms, and chemistries. Unless the cure is studied in relation to the variables of the marine system, we may never know why this is apparently possible. Still, if that reef safe cure is the secret weapon, then it should work every time and everywhere on the same MI organism. The problem is ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ you guessed it ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ none of these cures have demonstrated this ability.
3. So many things can go wrong during a treatment, even when the medication is known to work properly. Was it administered properly? Did it stay in the water? Did it have the right concentration? Did something in the marine system affect its success/failure? Or, was the problem more like 2. above. Any cure can fail, if the aquarist contaminates the system or lets some of the MI escape treatment. So, were all the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“failuresââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ legitimate or accidents? Maybe that miracle, short cut cure has already been found, but because most aquarists donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seem able to do it right, we thought the cure to be a failure.
4. Read the label. Did the cure really say it killed MI? Did it say that it cured fish of MI? Did the product label claim it eradicated MI from the system? Quite often the label reads it can ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“controlââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ MI outbreaks or ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“help in the control. . .ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ or can ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“preventââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ an outbreak. Controlling and preventing are not killing or getting rid of the MI. Before we claim the MI is ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cured,ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ maybe we should look closely at just what the product manufacturer claims about their product. Does the label say it will accomplish the goal with a near 100% success? Is there a guarantee? After all, your fish and reef specimens are at risk here.
I have used or know first-hand others that have used reef-safe products to cure MI. I have verified MI presence through microscopic identification. I have not been able to verify first-hand that any of these products consistently and repeatedly kill MI or remove it from a reef aquarium. I have verified that one or more of these products ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“repressââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ MI ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ but unfortunately, not in all tanks, all the time. The people who tried the product and it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work, allowed most of the fishes in their display to die. Who took the risk? Who paid the price?
I am waiting for an independent study to show that any reef-safe product/cure on the market today will actually kill MI in a reef tank. None of the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cureââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ manufacturers are doing this. It isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t expensive to set up tanks and test a product, then to try it out in different aquariums. It just needs to be done scientifically with verification and by people independent of the cure manufacturer. Heaven knows there are plenty of fish with MI to be participants of the experiment matrix. What could be wrong with sharing the outcome of such independent studies with the aquarist who is being asked to buy the product AND risk the lives of the fish and reef specimens counting on the product working.
Maybe Iââ"šÂ¬Ã‚Âm lazy. Maybe I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to have to dismantle my reef to get rid of the MI and to treat my fish. Is this our excuse for using a product that may work when I know what will work?
I liken this situation to the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“AQUACON SANCTION.ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ Dozens of people on RC have recounted their horrible experience with a company called Aquacon. But people still buy from them! Aquacon has several better business bureau complaints against them (available to the public) in addition to the dozens of people on RC who claim they mis-represent what they sell and do not have the service their advertising claims. So why do people, who know and read these things, still buy from them? The company has GREAT photos of reef creatures. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll make you drool! The ads and hype all make it sound like youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re a fool for not doing business with them. They are the short cut carrot to your goal for a show piece reef aquarium. But, that ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“carrotââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ is on a stick and as you move closer to it, the carrot moves away from you. The thing is, when it comes to MI, the carrot is already in your pocket. We know what to do.
I, we, aquariums, and aquaculturists are waiting to find that faster, easier, convenient, and short cut cure. All we know right now is that hyposalinity, copper, and a few other known treatments provide a very reliable way to remove this organism from our tanks and ornamental and food fishes. These methods are used by aquarists, professional aquarists in public and private aquariums, and by the aquiculture industry. No professional aquarist, public or private aquarium, nor aquaculturist use any of the offered ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“reef safeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ MI cure products aquarists pour $$$ into every year. There is one sure way: For the ornamental marine fish hobbyist, MI needs to be dealt with in quarantine with the one of the ways that work. We have the carrot!
We (aquarists) are always looking for a ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“faster,ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“easy,ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“convenientââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ or ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“short cutââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ way to get rid of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) from a reef tank. We got the reef setup and put fish in it and this disease got in. We know we can prevent Marine Ich (MI) from getting into our tanks by using a quarantine system. My display tanks have not had MI in them since 1970. But, as polls show, less than 35% of people filling out the polls on RC say they use a quarantine system. This majority finds diseased fish in their reef tanks and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to, or imagine they canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t, get the fish out of the tank for proper treatment of the fish and the tank. Whereââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the short cut? We arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t the only ones looking for this. . .
Aquaculturists of marine food fishes are looking for that same faster, easier, convenient, and short cut cure. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s been the pot oââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ gold chased for over 75 years. Take a moment and think what such a short cut cure would mean to the aquaculture industry; the professional public aquariums; and hobbyists around the world! If a cure came along that would be feasible and useful for all of us, we would be on it like hair on a gorilla. So why arenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t all those ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“reef safeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ cures being used by everyone, all the time?
So far, aquarist come forward with good news and bad news about marine products that are supposedly ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“reef safeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ that will cure Marine Ich (MI) in their reef tanks. Some say they worked without harming their reef specimens. Others say it worked, but harmed some of their reef specimens. Others say it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work and either did no harm or did harm to their reef tank specimens. But, there are many questions that come with this mixed-bag testimony.
1. Do they know their fish actually had MI to being with?
2. Do we know their apparent success can be reproduced in different aquariums and in different systems?
3. What about others who claim they tried the same remedy and it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work for them?
4. Does the medication really claim it cures or kills or eradicates MI from the reef tank?
1. Many beginners claim they found a product that cured their reef fish, in the reef tank, of MI. Frankly, many of these people donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know what MI looks like. Their diagnosis is at best based upon photos or descriptions. I can accept their diagnosis when I have clinical proof. I want to know MI was the disease. I still get inquiries from people that say their fish has MI because it has a few white spots. Actually, it turns out their fish had a minor Lymphocystis infection. Since Lymphocystis can come and go, the cure they used didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t cure MI at all. What usually happens is that the aquarist sees spots, then pays close attention to the fish foods, nutrition and water quality and as a result of this high profile attention, the fish recovers from Lymphocystis on its own, having nothing to do with the reef-safe MI ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cure.ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢
Another group, what I call the semi-seasoned aquarist have seen MI in their or other tanks before. Like the person who gets bitten by a leopard, they see spots everywhere. As soon as a white spot, any white spot, shows up on their fish, ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œMy fish have Marine Ich.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚Â
These doubts leave a big gap in their testimony. What was really wrong with the fish to begin with? Diagnosis, even for this prevalent organism, isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t easy and canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t always be counted upon by those who claim the cure saved their fish.
2. Differences in systems seems to account for some successes and failures. The results in one aquarium differ from the results in another. This may not be definitively explained, except we know that every aquarium has its own set of microbes, organisms, and chemistries. Unless the cure is studied in relation to the variables of the marine system, we may never know why this is apparently possible. Still, if that reef safe cure is the secret weapon, then it should work every time and everywhere on the same MI organism. The problem is ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ you guessed it ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ none of these cures have demonstrated this ability.
3. So many things can go wrong during a treatment, even when the medication is known to work properly. Was it administered properly? Did it stay in the water? Did it have the right concentration? Did something in the marine system affect its success/failure? Or, was the problem more like 2. above. Any cure can fail, if the aquarist contaminates the system or lets some of the MI escape treatment. So, were all the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“failuresââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ legitimate or accidents? Maybe that miracle, short cut cure has already been found, but because most aquarists donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seem able to do it right, we thought the cure to be a failure.
4. Read the label. Did the cure really say it killed MI? Did it say that it cured fish of MI? Did the product label claim it eradicated MI from the system? Quite often the label reads it can ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“controlââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ MI outbreaks or ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“help in the control. . .ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ or can ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“preventââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ an outbreak. Controlling and preventing are not killing or getting rid of the MI. Before we claim the MI is ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cured,ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ maybe we should look closely at just what the product manufacturer claims about their product. Does the label say it will accomplish the goal with a near 100% success? Is there a guarantee? After all, your fish and reef specimens are at risk here.
I have used or know first-hand others that have used reef-safe products to cure MI. I have verified MI presence through microscopic identification. I have not been able to verify first-hand that any of these products consistently and repeatedly kill MI or remove it from a reef aquarium. I have verified that one or more of these products ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“repressââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ MI ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ but unfortunately, not in all tanks, all the time. The people who tried the product and it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work, allowed most of the fishes in their display to die. Who took the risk? Who paid the price?
I am waiting for an independent study to show that any reef-safe product/cure on the market today will actually kill MI in a reef tank. None of the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cureââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ manufacturers are doing this. It isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t expensive to set up tanks and test a product, then to try it out in different aquariums. It just needs to be done scientifically with verification and by people independent of the cure manufacturer. Heaven knows there are plenty of fish with MI to be participants of the experiment matrix. What could be wrong with sharing the outcome of such independent studies with the aquarist who is being asked to buy the product AND risk the lives of the fish and reef specimens counting on the product working.
Maybe Iââ"šÂ¬Ã‚Âm lazy. Maybe I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to have to dismantle my reef to get rid of the MI and to treat my fish. Is this our excuse for using a product that may work when I know what will work?
I liken this situation to the ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“AQUACON SANCTION.ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ Dozens of people on RC have recounted their horrible experience with a company called Aquacon. But people still buy from them! Aquacon has several better business bureau complaints against them (available to the public) in addition to the dozens of people on RC who claim they mis-represent what they sell and do not have the service their advertising claims. So why do people, who know and read these things, still buy from them? The company has GREAT photos of reef creatures. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll make you drool! The ads and hype all make it sound like youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re a fool for not doing business with them. They are the short cut carrot to your goal for a show piece reef aquarium. But, that ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“carrotââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ is on a stick and as you move closer to it, the carrot moves away from you. The thing is, when it comes to MI, the carrot is already in your pocket. We know what to do.
I, we, aquariums, and aquaculturists are waiting to find that faster, easier, convenient, and short cut cure. All we know right now is that hyposalinity, copper, and a few other known treatments provide a very reliable way to remove this organism from our tanks and ornamental and food fishes. These methods are used by aquarists, professional aquarists in public and private aquariums, and by the aquiculture industry. No professional aquarist, public or private aquarium, nor aquaculturist use any of the offered ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“reef safeââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ MI cure products aquarists pour $$$ into every year. There is one sure way: For the ornamental marine fish hobbyist, MI needs to be dealt with in quarantine with the one of the ways that work. We have the carrot!
