Bleach vs Acid

[therealfatman]

With safety precautions, post-treatment with weak organic acids such as acetic (vinegar) will neutralize the NaOH, and volatilize the chlorine from residual hypochlorite.

True though without the mild acid being used the chlorine would not evaporate. However, the vinegar will release the chlorine as a gas. The safety precaustions are ventilation as chlorine gas is toxic.

The reason that people are told not to mix chlorine cleaning products with other cleaning products is that the other cleaning products may contain an acid thereby the chlorine will be volatized (turned into gas). A chlorine cleaning product that has an ammonia cleaning product added will result in the release of chloroamine gas which is also toxic.

The best methodoly is do the cleaning/soaking out doors. add the vinegar to your tbe already filled with water and leave the immediatte area for a few minutes.

 

[billyWhite]

Thanks Fatman and Bertoni.

I'll pick up the real stuff from a hardware store tonight.

Bertoni, are you saying I should dechlorinate prior to the acid bath? Or just make sure to dechlorinate prior to sticking the rocks back in the aquarium?

I just want to be super sure since this is not at all my area of expertise and I don't want to do anything dangerous with mixing chemicals.

 

[billyWhite]

Oops - I just noticed your newest post, Fatman, which I think clears up some of my concerns.

I'll do my mixing out in the garage then get outta there for a while

 

[Oshkosh]

Here is a recipe I found a little while back on bleaching rock. I personally haven’t tried it but I’m told that it works well. The ratio is a lot stronger than mentioned in other posts but it does use a lot baking soda to neutralize the rock so feel free to adjust the ratios.

3 days 50/50 bleach water
3 days freshwater soak (I do a water change every day, probably unnecessary but can't hurt!)
3 days 2 lbs. baking soda soak
3 weeks drying out

If you use a fan you can speed the drying out process by a week or so.

 

[therealfatman]

Like Bertoni pointed out common house hold bleach does not evaporate, and it takes very little chlorine to wipe out a tank.

I can see no benefit that the baking soda would provide.

 

[billyWhite]

I just did my first acid wash and I have a quick question/concern.

About 25% of the rocks I placed in were definitely live rock. These are the rocks that got super bleach white when I bleached them. When I put them in the acid, these rocks seemed to react the most - they were bubbling like crazy, and I could tell they were getting thinner and holes were being created in the already-thin parts.

The other 75% I purchased as base rock. These were the rocks that I saw very little effect from the bleach, and these seem to be doing almost nothing in the acid. The coraline and little white tube worms are gone for sure, but the rock seemed to not be effected at all.

Not a big deal, I guess, but I'm still curious. Is this expected? Does it just depend on the composition of the rocks? Also, could this somehow be any indication that the rocks aren't very well suited for my aquarium?

 

[therealfatman]

Carbonate and buicarbonate based rocks effervesse (bubble) when acid is applied to their surfaces. This means Lime, chalk, dolomote lime, calcium carbonate (arragonite), stoney coral skeletons, and marble will bubble. There are also many other rocks containing differing amounts of carbonates. Granite, silica and silca based rocks such as quartz will not bubble.

In general people tend to limit their rocks in their reef tanks to carbonate rocks, although there are many rocks that are safe to use. However, geology is not a widely studied area so the assistance in rock identification by geologists is less common than merely doing a vinegar or hydrochloric acid test for bubbling.

It is not safe to say a rock came out of the ocean so it is safe to use in an aquarium. An ocean is a huge water reservi oirs that can turn the unsafe minerals and chemicals into a very small problem due to the oceans huge water volume. Hence the saying the solution to pollution is dilution. Even saying life forms were living on the rock is not a safe method as nature produces a lot of lifeforms that live in the ocean under very toxic conditions. An example are life forms that only live around the edges of ocean bottom volcano vents where sulphur plumes are nearly continous emitted. (extreme example)

 

[bertoni]

It sounds to me as if the "base rock" isn't live rock at all. You could try chipping a piece off. Live rock will will dissolve in vinegar, producing carbon dioxide bubbles.

 

[eros]

I just put some of my dead live rock in Vinegar. Do I have to worry about it dissolving? I put it in there a few hours ago.

 

[therealfatman]

Te process is quite slow with diluted vinegar and the effective cleaning/dissolving time is directly related to the amount of venegar you used. Did you dilute it in water or use it full strength? The live rock is supposed to bubble. If it is bubbling it is slowly dissolving. It is the surface that dissolves, it will not turn softa as a whole and then turn to mush all at once. The surface will just slowly fizz away. The more the vinegar is diluted the slower the process.

 

[Oshkosh]

For a house hold bleach washing/soaking could you use Peroxide to neutralize the hypochlorite? Any residual effects and what ratio and how long would you need to soak it for?

 

[Hammsreefbeer]

hey guys,
a little update and question.Ive just finish a 6 1/2 cycle and all is good test,ammonia 0,no2 0,no3 10.im going to test po4 now but wanted to get this out real quick ill LYK what po4 is.all test were done with API.
Im starting to peg it now and getting my aquascape done.Now my question is,,,How much can i put in at one time?Im thinking about putting 1/2 now and 1/2 tomorrow night as long as testing turns out good.I do have 15 or so sps frags that are growing good and have been in the display from 6-2 months.LMK if you want me to post tank parameters or not but tested on the 8th and are all good.
If you have any questions or comments please let me know.
thank you.

ps...ill post update pics after aquascaping is done.

 

[therealfatman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15016041#post15016041 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Oshkosh
For a house hold bleach washing/soaking could you use Peroxide to neutralize the hypochlorite? Any residual effects and what ratio and how long would you need to soak it for?

Yes, it will work but it ends up as one of those do it and run reactions. Chemisits would say a quite violent reaction. The end result would be table salt (NaCl) + Water (H2O) + Oxygen (O2 gas). Not as neat as adding Chlorine gas to elemental sodium but still an impressive reaction. Elemental sodium is a nearly solid mass that is shiny silver and it and chlorine form an immense near blinding flash when they come into contact with the results being table salt.

I can not begin to predict your reaction when the concentrations are not known but the reaction will be quick enough and obvios enough to allow you to know when it is complete ie., no more oxygen being released then the reaction is over.

 

[bertoni]

I'd stick to Prime or Amquel, rather than trying vinegar or peroxide. They'll do the job and don't product dangerous byproducts.

 

[Oshkosh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15018226#post15018226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by therealfatman
Yes, it will work but it ends up as one of those do it and run reactions. Chemisits would say a quite violent reaction. The end result would be table salt (NaCl) + Water (H2O) + Oxygen (O2 gas). Not as neat as adding Chlorine gas to elemental sodium but still an impressive reaction. Elemental sodium is a nearly solid mass that is shiny silver and it and chlorine form an immense near blinding flash when they come into contact with the results being table salt.

I can not begin to predict your reaction when the concentrations are not known but the reaction will be quick enough and obvios enough to allow you to know when it is complete ie., no more oxygen being released then the reaction is over.

I think your right bertoni, I better stick with Prime. However, it's very tempting to witness the "immense near blinding flash " that therealfatman states when MY SON places the rock in the peroxide bath...lol

 

[bertoni]

The flash would require metallic sodium, but in general, don't post anything you don't want to appear in court.

 

[therealfatman]

Elemental sodium is metallic sodium! Sodium, symbol Na, highly reactive, silvery-white, extremely soft metallic element. In group 1 (or Ia) of the periodic table, sodium is one of the alkali metals. The atomic number of sodium is 11. Sodium is so soft that it has a Mohrs hardness of 0.4. That is why I said nearly solid. It is about as soft as a soft cheese and can be cut with a popsicle stick, definitely with any metal knife blade to include a butter knife.

There is nothing in my post that is not widely posted all over the web. The sodium/chlorine (gas) reaction is even performed regularly in chemistry lab demonstraions for grade school through college level students.

The man asked a simple question and he was given a simple answer.

As far as the blinding flash aspect of sodium chloride/chlorine (gas) it is very very doubtful that the general public have access to chlorine gas or elemental sodium. I can not believe any firm that sells either would sell either to the general public. I doubt that it is even legal for either to be sold to the general public.

 

[therealfatman]

The cost of using Amquel would be quite high if you used much chlorine at all. Sodium Thiosulfate is readily avialable in bulk in a granular for. It has a long shelf life in a granular form. To neutralize one gallon of a 200 ppm chlorine solution, approximately 1.5 - 5.3 grams would be required.

Here it is available for $15 for 5 pounds. Thats a lot of dechlorination.

http://www.wchemical.com/SODIUM-THIOSULFATE-P51C9.aspx

 

[bertoni]

Sodium thiosulfate would be cheaper in bulk.

I was making a joke about him having his son dump the rock into the peroxide.

 

[therealfatman]

Bertoni
Sorry, I just felt this emotion I equate to having just been slapped on the wrist with a ruler. Almost 60 years old and still do not know how to deal with that emotion.