Bleach vs Acid

[bheron]

Actually a great question and really one of the key themes from this thread. They both do something different, and here's what it is:

Bleach - basically "oxidizes" all "organic" material. Put differently, bleach is out to kill all living things. I think its best to do this step first. I dont think there's any way to tel lif everything's been oxidized (evaporated) but I would think a couple days in a water/bleach solution probably does the job.

Acid/ - very differenct, acid basically breaks apart material. Not sure but pretty much anything that comes in touch with acid is broken down. At least thats the case for our calcerious live rock. Now, the goal here is to break down the outer layer of your live rock that (may) contain phosphate. Same as above, no idea how to measure how much phosphate is on your rock OR how much rock is broken down by the acid. In my case I'm going with the "longer the better" approach. Last time I dipped acid for maybe 30-60 seconds and that clearly didnt remove all phosphate. This last time I let it sit for like 30 mins. That's prob the max since the rock clearly was lighter and less in mass. we shall see!

Hope that helps!

 

[bheron]

Just received a PM about the topic and thought I'd post my response here

Question: How long did you soak the rock in the acid for? Did you use the same acid bath for all the rock or did you make a few fresh batches?

Answer: First time I soaked a single rock at a time for about 60 seconds. I did this in a 5g salt bucket and used the same batch until the solution basically lost its power. In other words, as soon as the bubbles slowed down I changed out the soution. Now, this time around I mixed a larger batch in a 35g trach can and soaked a whole bunch of rock at once, and for about 30-45 mins. I did this for three different batches of rocks, each time changing out the acid solution. Hope that helps!

 

[bertoni]

Letting the rock dry out (in the sun or not) will kill a lot of pests, but it won't remove any nutrients. Bleach is good for breaking down organic compounds. Acid is useful for removing calcium carbonate that is tainted with phosphorus, as has been stated.

 

[snaza]

Thanks guys. I'm only interested in killing all pests. how long should i leave it out in the sun? then can i just rinse it (very well in RO water) and put it in my new tank ready for the cycle to start. will all the dead stuff in the ex-Live rock skim out or be removed during the cycle?

 

[HighlandReefer]

I would soak all your rock in bleach water to brake down the organic matter, then scrub it clean. If anything remains on your rock after the first bath, repeat the bleach bath until the rock is clean of all organic matter. Then rinse soak in clean water. The bleach will kill the pest organisms. If you let the rock dry in the sun, perhaps some organisms can survive deeper in rock crevices. My two cents.

Bleach will brake down in 24 hrs.

 

[bheron]

snaz - i agree with highlandreefer. letting your rock sit in the sun is not too different than letting it sit in an empty, dry tank. lots of things will die, probably everything, and then you're left with rock full of dead organic material (ie - nutrients, waste, etc). You will need to not only kill the live stuff on the rock but then remove it. rinsing it prob wont do the best job since the porous rock is filled with stuff (dead and alive). reason bleach is effective (i think) is b/c it can penetrate the rock and work on breaking down the dead stuff into nothing (oxidation).

Hope that helps!

 

[bertoni]

Letting it sit in the sun for a few days should kill most pests, assuming the weather is dry. I agree that there might be a lot of nutrients left in the rock.

 

[McBeck]

I haven't posted here in a long while, but I wanted to thank everyone on this thread for the great information. I had a 3yr battle with Caulerpa verticillata. It's the most invasive thing I've ever seen. I didn't want to nuke the tank, but that decision was made for me over the summer.

While I was out of town for a week in August, the A/C in my house went out. Everything inside the house was 95 degrees when I returned. I mean everything - every surface was warm to the touch. Even the sinks, toilets, and faucets were warm. Of course the tank was even hotter b/c the equipment was still running. Needless to say, the only thing that survived was the damn c verticillata. It was positively heartbreaking.

I'm finally ready to rebuild, but I knew I needed to nuke the rocks before restarting and I wasn't sure of the best way to approach this task. After reading through this thread, I soaked the rocks in 1:8 bleach:water solution last night. I checked them this morning and the algae is GONE. It has completely dissolved and disappeared. It was literally like magic - I didn't think anything short of a chisel was going to release those roots.

Tonight I plan to rinse and then soak in straight vinegar. I'm not going to use muriatic acid b/c I think it's too dangerous. After reading through here I think the vinegar should be more than sufficient for my needs, and I feel much safer and more confident handling the vinegar than I would the acid.

After the vinegar bath (I haven't yet decided how long the bath will be) I am going to rinse and scrub w/ a toothbrush, soak in a dechlorinator, and finally air dry. I hope to have the tank back up by the end of the year.

 

[bertoni]

I'm sorry to hear about the losses!

The vinegar should be fine. That plan sounds fine, although the dechlorinator shouldn't be needed at all.

 

[bheron]

I've now gone through my 2nd attempt at getting this right and I'm very glad I used the acid. while it is indeed dangerous in more ways than one, I'm not sure vinegar would've done the job for me. Doesnt mean the vinegar wont work for you. defintiely give it a try and see. could take several attempts....I know myself.

i have to say, for the first time since I've had this setup in 5 years I think I might have the algae problem beat!

 

[teesquare]

Just a thought-

Given that you can and will exercise a bit of caution ( including only using acid in an open area, outdoors, and only adding acid to water - not the other way around, and wear gloves and goggles -)
The cost of buying Muriatic acid ( in the 20-26 degree Baume range - common harware store stuff) should be much less expensive than vinegar.
One gallon of acid can make 8 to 10 gallons of solution to clean with. Possibly more, depending on the hardness/ph of your tap water.
T

 

[chr15_8]

Hi Ive just finished reading though this and found it alot of help.

Ive got 21kg (46lbs) of dry rock. Ive had it soaking in RODI water now for 3 weeks. First of all i was changing the water every day for the 1st week then every other for the last 2 weeks. Ive also been running Rowaphos. Still having phospahte problems so im thinking about doing this soaking/dipping.

Can someone comfirm that this is the acid i need?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HYDROCHLORIC-...Supplies_ET&hash=item1e5ce9ed53#ht_2200wt_905

What brand bleach has everyone been using? I was thinking of the cheap supermarket bleaches? Making sure it has no added scents etc.

Thanks
Chris

 

[bertoni]

That's the right acid to use. Be very careful with it! To repeat, I'd work outdoors and wear arm-length gloves and goggles.

I don't think bleach will be useful after an acid bath. The acid will kill most everything.

 

[chr15_8]

Ok thanks Jonathan.

I thought the bleach was a bit pointless as the acid takes the bleached layer away.

Has anyone got any phosphate readings after the bleach/acid dips to make sure this works?
Has everyone's phospahte reading in there tanks after doing this method?

Thanks
Chris

 

[bertoni]

Some people have been successful. I suspect there have been some failures, as well. Live rock from a polluted area might never be clean, for example.

 

[chr15_8]

Thanks

Will give it a try and then soak it in salted RODI water and see what the Phosphate levels are like are.

 

[Patrick12]

Jonathon highlights a very important point for those that are trying to get rid of phosphate that they feel has leached into thier LR from the LRs dwell time in their aquarium. If the LR was originally harvested in a slightly polluted area......and that is not at all too unlikely because it is easier to collect LR from a place that is close to shore.......then you may very well find that phosphates and whatever else, are a part fo that LR. If the problem persists after all the above measures are taken, it could very well be that you have some poor quality LR. Just consider that in your differentials.

 

[bugshop]

Ok thanks Jonathan.

I thought the bleach was a bit pointless as the acid takes the bleached layer away.

Has anyone got any phosphate readings after the bleach/acid dips to make sure this works?
Has everyone's phospahte reading in there tanks after doing this method?

Thanks
Chris

I found the bleach before the acid worked well for me. Had everything on the been very dead and dry then I don't think the bleach would have been much help.

But I had a massive outbreak of majano and algae on my rock and it was still very alive.

The living tissue was more resistant to the acid and the acid was eating away the rock long before it removed the algae and majanos.
So I manually removed what I could, bleached it to kill everything, rinsed it well and let it dry.
Then did the acid dip to remove the dead dry tissue much easer.

 

[chr15_8]

Thanks for te reply.

The rock i have is dead/dry rock. So i should need to bleach however there's probably no real reason not too.

What brand of bleach did you use?

 

[bheron]

Agree with Patrick12's and Jonathon's comments. This method works great, but its not foolproof. Its possible to have rock that is beyond help in this area.

A few months after my latest process I'm finding a small outbreak of cyano, but that could be part of the cycling process. It also could be that there is just too much phosphate in my rock from original collection or years of waste buildup in my previous tanks. Waiting it out to see what happens.

Very frustrating.