hello everyone just got done reading all the posts and must agree that an animal with the capability of being able to produce one of the most deadly toxins known to man really should not be kept in home aquaria. and not just for the reef keepers safty but the safty of any one that lives in the home to easy for it to escape and accidently steped on. wouldnt that be a nice surprise in the morning. anyway here is something you might find interesting about 6 months ago i was debating on setting up an octopus tank and was doing reserch online and with two lfs that i go to and both of them told me that if i wanted they could get me a blue ringed octopus for less than 30 dollars can you belive that. so my guess is that they must not be that hard to get in. dont know about you but dont think i would take the chance with the life of my family for that. and besides they only show off those really cool blue rings when they are ****ed off. so go ahead and poke a stick in your tank to see the cool colors
Blue ringed octopus
- Thread starter Chris Witort
- Start date
Gonodactylus
Premium Member
I know of no law, federal or state, that prohibits purchasing or possessing Hapalochlaena that were properly exported from the country of origin. Probably the closest thing to regulating blue-rings is the Patriot Act which controls the possession of TTX. After the law was inacted, I contacted various officials to see if I had to also register my live blue-rings. After a year's discussion, it was decided that I did not as long as the TTX was in live animals, but if I extracted it from animals, I did.
Roy
Roy
it is leagel to own and posses them as long as thy are properly documented. if you purchase one from reputible source they are, and your info should be taken down. I learned this from my local reptile distributor and i am going by his word alone I trust his opion and what he states as law. There is no way that i am going to try to travk down the case law to prove it to much reading not worth the time. as long as everything is legit as far as importation and registaring there should be no problem Gonodactylus you reasearched it well and there should bo no issue on your animals. however if you are to sell it or trade it whatever then there is a problem, like handguns as long as they are registerd there leagel but if sold proper paper work should be filled out. Like i said before I'am takeing the words of my local reptile store I do consider his words to be true and am useing his words alone for my source. Last and most important I must see pics of those blue rings in your tank must be stunning to have such a buetiful animal!
Thales
Active member
Untrue. There is no paperwork at all needed to sell of buy these animals in the US.
Perhaps he was talking about reptiles, something I don't know much about, but do know that it is more regulated than MO.
Because its not true.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for me to track down a lack of such law, so if you are going to say there is a law I am afraid you are going to have to track it down to be believed. There is no registering. The paper trail ends at importation. This is probably different for reptiles.
If anyone would know the reality it would be Roy, considering part of what he does for a living is research blue rings. There may be issues with Roy selling or trading the animals, but that would have to do with institutional rules or laws pertaining to his institution. If he were a hobbyist, he could sell or trade blue rings as much as he wanted - without paperwork.
He's wrong about this.
All of which has little to do with keeping blue rings. In that regard, I am pretty much in line with Roy.
Gonodactylus
Premium Member
Part of the confusion here stems from the distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates. Invertebrates are often not considered "animals". Even within the regulations that my university must follow, the distinction is often not recognized. Things are starting to change. Were I working in the U.K. or Australia, cephalopods and lobsters would be included in the regulations. So far in the U.S., this is not the case.
Roy
Roy
sacremon
New member
Another distinction with reptiles is that, unlike fish, they can potentially escape the confines of their cage, get out into the general population and bite someone. That is not going to happen with a fish or invertebrate (short of something like a walking catfish or other such exotic species, none of which I am aware of being venomous).
ocotopus have been known to escape from their cages walk sevarl meters and climb into another tank and eat its' captive then return to it home aqurium obviously they cannnot last as long as snakes outside their home aquarrium but are still poteinolly deadly when they go on walkobout
Koshmar
The Hardy Mongolian Pony
The reptile restrictions probably have something to do with their natural flora, Salmonella. I checked into a CDC incidence report a few months ago when I was considering on buying a chameleon. There were some bad cases where small children were killed.
Kind of getting off topic but yeah, it's more than just the animal.
I would really like to see an octopus climb out of its tank, "walk" across the floor, and somehow get into another tank and then "walk" right back home. Sounds a little....well....yeah.
Kind of getting off topic but yeah, it's more than just the animal.
I would really like to see an octopus climb out of its tank, "walk" across the floor, and somehow get into another tank and then "walk" right back home. Sounds a little....well....yeah.
Koshmar
The Hardy Mongolian Pony
I've heard stories of them getting out and being found away from the tank before but the part about one climbing back up and into it's own tank was a little far-fetched for me.
The Salmonella topic was meant to explain another concern other than a reptile simply biting someone or venom. I did not make a connection to venom.
The Salmonella topic was meant to explain another concern other than a reptile simply biting someone or venom. I did not make a connection to venom.
From aquariums, stories are rampant about octopuses who sneak out of their enclosures at night and invite themselves into other tanks to gorge on the other aquarium residents. The deed completed, the octopus will return to their own enclosure, no one the wiser. However, this clever plan does not necessarily work out all the time, and “octopus suicide” is well-known among pet owners soure http://www.tonmo.com/cephcare/octoarticle.pdf
Removed~dc
Removed~dc
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seventhz
New member
I agree, I think that if it were in an endangered species list then that would be one thing but as for the sale or purchase of one, I doubt that there is a law prohibiting such a sale... surprisingly, no one here seems to have any hard facts to support their side of the debate although Roy seems to have come extremely close to a resolution. On the other hand, I feel that there is a good possibility that there may be a law that would apply to this debate, now that's not to say that such said law applies specifically to the blue ring octo but maybe a more broad application to highly venomous creatures in general. Either way, I would really like to see someone post a reference to law that does or does not prohibit the sale/purchase of these lil' beauties.
As for me, I would certianly love to own one but there's still just that little voice in the back of my head that says "are you REALLY sure that's such a good idea?" I've read from a reputable source that some blue rings can contain enough toxin to kill up to !10! adult men! I remember the first time I saw one in an article and thought "Wow! That is gorgeous!"... and then I read the article and quickly thought "well, I guess that eliminates him from my list of future specimens." I think that the ONLY way I would even consider keeping one of these guys is if I were to keep him in a tank that had already previously housed an octo and had proven to be "escape proof."
Ultimately, I think that these little gems probably should only be kept by professional aquarists with decades of experience or research institutions.
seventhz
New member
Alright, well first of all... Shovel, you were never called a liar, Koshmar simply said "I would really like to see an octopus climb out of its tank, "walk" across the floor, and somehow get into another tank and then "walk" right back home. Sounds a little....well....yeah." It is rather difficult to believe and I sure would like to see this occur, BUT, let's not neglect the fact that these are very inteligent creatures and if they are capable distinguishing they owner from Joe Blow and are also capable of figuring out how to open a the lid to a jar to attain the prize inside... well then it's definately not beyond the realm of possibility. Also, from what I understand, octo's are very indulgent eaters and it wouldn't surpise me that an animal with such good eye sight and inteligence would look at a tank across the room and say to itself "That's where I want to be." This is a very interesting topic though, why would the octo return to it's home tank when it's found such a plentiful feeding ground? For Shovels sake, I would say that maybe this creature loves a target rich enviroment but it knows where it's "home/safe place" is and it will return there after gorging itself.
Another interesting aspect of this arguement, is that I would have to assume that the only way that this could possibly occur is if the water perimeters between the two tanks in question would have to be extremely similar... I understand that these creatures do not ship very well at all and that they require a more intense acclimation (someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
By the by, has it crossed anyones mind that the LFS owner who sold the blue ring for $20 along with a "death waiver" simply did so because he/she just wanted to get the damn thing out of his/her store knowing just how dangerous it was to keep one? I have no experience with these things what so ever and it amazes me that an LFS would even have one for sale... what amazes me the most though is that an LFS would sell one of these little gems for $20! I have to assume that if they had a good head on their shoulders then they would put forth the effort to find a buyer that would easily pay far more than 20 measly bucks for one. I mean really, why pay $50 for a common dwarf octo when this LFS is selling a blue ring for 20 bucks!? Would some care to comment on this assumption? Please, I'd love to hear what you have to say.
Another interesting aspect of this arguement, is that I would have to assume that the only way that this could possibly occur is if the water perimeters between the two tanks in question would have to be extremely similar... I understand that these creatures do not ship very well at all and that they require a more intense acclimation (someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
By the by, has it crossed anyones mind that the LFS owner who sold the blue ring for $20 along with a "death waiver" simply did so because he/she just wanted to get the damn thing out of his/her store knowing just how dangerous it was to keep one? I have no experience with these things what so ever and it amazes me that an LFS would even have one for sale... what amazes me the most though is that an LFS would sell one of these little gems for $20! I have to assume that if they had a good head on their shoulders then they would put forth the effort to find a buyer that would easily pay far more than 20 measly bucks for one. I mean really, why pay $50 for a common dwarf octo when this LFS is selling a blue ring for 20 bucks!? Would some care to comment on this assumption? Please, I'd love to hear what you have to say.
http://us.mc596.mail.yahoo.com/mc/s...Inbox&mid=1_19983_ANYMDUwAAVDvSe+ozwfG8F0rsnQ
How can you buy a green mamba snake?A U.S. grand jury indicted a Las Vegas man last Friday for attempting to sell venomous reptiles over the Internet. While searching his home, U.S. Fish and Wildlife agents seized cobras, rattlesnakes, and even seven Eastern green mambas. Is it ever legal to sell a deadly snake?
CLOSEYes. In most places, it's not a criminal activity to sell venomous, or "hot," snakes over the Internet, but you do need a government permit. There aren't any federal laws regulating the hot-snake trade; each state controls these transactions through their wildlife or agriculture divisions. (Prospective snake buyers must obtain a similar permit to keep the animals.) State regulations vary widely. Massachusetts, for example, prohibits the sale or husbandry of hot snakes. Other states, including Nevada, grant licenses to sellers and buyers according to their ability to properly handle and house the snakes. (Applicants must demonstrate knowledge of various techniques, like how to use snake hooks, tongs, and other restraints.)
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Related in Slate
Daniel Engber looked at how much it costs to buy a monkey over the Internet. Brenden I. Koerner explained the difference between an alligator, a caiman, and a crocodile; he also revealed that scorpions aren't actually that deadly. William Brantley shopped for the best bee sting antidote. Dana Stevens reviewed the action flick Snakes on a Plane, and Christopher Beam investigated how to really get a snake on a plane.Some federal oversight for the animal trade comes through the Endangered Species Act. You're not allowed to engage in any activity that might harm an animal that appears on the official list; selling an endangered animal for profit usually qualifies as exploitation. As of the writing of this column, no venomous snakes have been designated as endangered species. (Two kinds of hot snakes have been given "threatened" statusâ€"the New Mexican ridge-nosed rattlesnake and the Aruba Island rattlesnake; others, like the Eastern diamondback rattler and the Eastern coral snake, qualify for state endangered species lists). The federal government can also control wildlife trade through the Lacey Act, which prohibits the interstate trafficking of animals that have been obtained in violation of state laws.
I found this after a little looking but can't imaigne it is any differnt for any other posienous animals considering it cover scorpians and poisen dart frogs, both not reptiles.
Also it does not matter how it is worded when you tell someone that you do not belive them you are calling them a liar!
How can you buy a green mamba snake?A U.S. grand jury indicted a Las Vegas man last Friday for attempting to sell venomous reptiles over the Internet. While searching his home, U.S. Fish and Wildlife agents seized cobras, rattlesnakes, and even seven Eastern green mambas. Is it ever legal to sell a deadly snake?
CLOSEYes. In most places, it's not a criminal activity to sell venomous, or "hot," snakes over the Internet, but you do need a government permit. There aren't any federal laws regulating the hot-snake trade; each state controls these transactions through their wildlife or agriculture divisions. (Prospective snake buyers must obtain a similar permit to keep the animals.) State regulations vary widely. Massachusetts, for example, prohibits the sale or husbandry of hot snakes. Other states, including Nevada, grant licenses to sellers and buyers according to their ability to properly handle and house the snakes. (Applicants must demonstrate knowledge of various techniques, like how to use snake hooks, tongs, and other restraints.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related in Slate
Daniel Engber looked at how much it costs to buy a monkey over the Internet. Brenden I. Koerner explained the difference between an alligator, a caiman, and a crocodile; he also revealed that scorpions aren't actually that deadly. William Brantley shopped for the best bee sting antidote. Dana Stevens reviewed the action flick Snakes on a Plane, and Christopher Beam investigated how to really get a snake on a plane.Some federal oversight for the animal trade comes through the Endangered Species Act. You're not allowed to engage in any activity that might harm an animal that appears on the official list; selling an endangered animal for profit usually qualifies as exploitation. As of the writing of this column, no venomous snakes have been designated as endangered species. (Two kinds of hot snakes have been given "threatened" statusâ€"the New Mexican ridge-nosed rattlesnake and the Aruba Island rattlesnake; others, like the Eastern diamondback rattler and the Eastern coral snake, qualify for state endangered species lists). The federal government can also control wildlife trade through the Lacey Act, which prohibits the interstate trafficking of animals that have been obtained in violation of state laws.
I found this after a little looking but can't imaigne it is any differnt for any other posienous animals considering it cover scorpians and poisen dart frogs, both not reptiles.
Also it does not matter how it is worded when you tell someone that you do not belive them you are calling them a liar!
seventhz
New member
Alright alright... *EDITED*not to be judgemental here but you are being a bit over reactive. You really 'snapped' like a snake when responding to Koshmars disbelief... which brings up another good point, last time I checked, the name of this website is titled "Reef Central", not "Herp Corner".... I really think that you are trying to apply way too much reptile information to a discussion that started with a blue ringed octopus. This is supposed to be a healthy discussion, not an arguement. I hope that I haven't offended you and I'm sorry if I have.
when responding to Koshmars disbelief... which brings up another good point, last time I checked, the name of this website is titled "Reef Central", not "Herp Corner".... I really think that you are trying to apply way too much reptile information to a discussion that started with a blue ringed octopus. This is supposed to be a healthy discussion, not an arguement. I hope that I haven't offended you and I'm sorry if I have.
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Koshmar
The Hardy Mongolian Pony
Lets just get back on topic.
Concerning selling blue rings, I have encountered a store in my area that sells them. They also sell sharks and other unusual creatures for aquariums, animals that should generally be left out in the ocean. I spoke with one of the sales people about the blue ring because they had just sold it when I visited. She said that they are really not dangerous if you know how to handle them. I think that most shops that sell these animals don't really have a grasp of their abilities in terms of harming people.
If I remember right, they are sold so cheap because they are easy to aquire.
Concerning selling blue rings, I have encountered a store in my area that sells them. They also sell sharks and other unusual creatures for aquariums, animals that should generally be left out in the ocean. I spoke with one of the sales people about the blue ring because they had just sold it when I visited. She said that they are really not dangerous if you know how to handle them. I think that most shops that sell these animals don't really have a grasp of their abilities in terms of harming people.
If I remember right, they are sold so cheap because they are easy to aquire.
