Bottled Bacteria

[JeffyT]

I've had two tanks in my reefing career. My 30g starter tank was a nightmare because of impatience. I did the whole live sand, "seeded" live rock from my LFS, used their display tank water all to accelerate and let the tank cycle for 2 weeks and then I added fish. This was supposedly the best way as I was coerced by my LFS. Once the algae starting showing up I couldnt help but to fidget. I kept trying to tweak things and dose things and water change really often.

The 2nd time around with my 20g shallow, is probably the most success i've had in reef keeping. This time it was all patience. And one of the most important things I'd have to say when starting a reef tank slowly. Is that you don't have to restart the process all over again. Imagine you cut short your cycle or start dosing things unnecessarily and then have to redo the entire process over. I highly suggest you just do things the right way.

I cycled this tank for 8 weeks, no light, a block of marine pure, 20lbs live sand and 10lbs live rock. I used a bottle of Dr. Tims and no protein skimmer. At about week 8 I turned on the skimmer and added my clowns. From there on after it was about 1 coral a month, and my BTA about 4 months after my fish to ensure that the HOB filter and Protein Skimmer could handle everything.

 

[Elricsfate]

I've had two tanks in my reefing career. My 30g starter tank was a nightmare because of impatience. I did the whole live sand, "seeded" live rock from my LFS, used their display tank water all to accelerate and let the tank cycle for 2 weeks and then I added fish. This was supposedly the best way as I was coerced by my LFS. Once the algae starting showing up I couldnt help but to fidget. I kept trying to tweak things and dose things and water change really often.

The 2nd time around with my 20g shallow, is probably the most success i've had in reef keeping. This time it was all patience. And one of the most important things I'd have to say when starting a reef tank slowly. Is that you don't have to restart the process all over again. Imagine you cut short your cycle or start dosing things unnecessarily and then have to redo the entire process over. I highly suggest you just do things the right way.

I cycled this tank for 8 weeks, no light, a block of marine pure, 20lbs live sand and 10lbs live rock. I used a bottle of Dr. Tims and no protein skimmer. At about week 8 I turned on the skimmer and added my clowns. From there on after it was about 1 coral a month, and my BTA about 4 months after my fish to ensure that the HOB filter and Protein Skimmer could handle everything.

Not sure who this was directed at, but just to be clear. I personally am not dosing anything. I am also not going to "start over", or "rush" or overload my tank.

The simple fact is that the purpose of cycling a tank is to establish the bacteria necessary to perform and complete the Nitrogen cycle. If you start the tank with sand and rock which already contain this bacteria, and you increase the bio-load in a slow and reasonable manner, then the bacteria is already established. All the months of darkness, etc. works...sure. And it is definitely the "long way". I'm not as certain that any particular way can be referred to as "the right way". Based on the fact that right here in this thread there are people who have done it in different ways and had success.

 

[Sk8r]

What you're doing is what we used to do back in the 70's and 80's...which is add a bacterial source, add a fish to poo into the sand, and if you do it carefully enough the fish will live and the ammonia it produces will get handled fast enough that it doesn't die. It's very simple. But if poo gets ahead of the bacteria, ammonia will arise that doesn't get handled and the fish will die. The other old method of cycling a tank was to toss in a dead fish and wait for it all to process....so if the fish dies, you just leave it in. It's all the same biology. I just prefer to toss in a little fish food and let it decay, which also does the same thing.

 

[Elricsfate]

For the record Sk8r, I have read with great interest many of your posts and have a lot of respect for your thoughts and experience. So I really appreciate you posting to this thread.

Just by way of update, for anyone who is curious.

Fish went in the tank Saturday at 4 pm. It is now Wed at 6pm. Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .25 Nitrate: 5.0

 

[Raintree]

I think adding a bacteria source and then immediately adding fish is risky and a bit irresponsible to say the least. You owe it to the animal that you are taking from the nice, clean, "cycled" ocean to at LEAST drop some ammonia in the tank to see how it's handled.

Why not test the effectiveness with ammonia or fish food instead of with a living animal?

 

[ncaldwell]

Because that sadly isn't how it works with this hobby. You'd be surprised how many arguments my wife gets into with customers who want to put a saltwater fish in freshwater. Sales refused because they want to do it anyway even if it's going to die. The scenario isn't ideal by mine or some others standards but at least they are trying to do right by the animal now. Lesson learned hopefully

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Elricsfate,

Thanks for starting this thread. I thought I was aware of everything procedure-wise for the setup of my soon-to-start tank, but while I heard of such products before I had not really paid attention to them until I read this thread.

If I get this right, these products claim to give you a full nitrogen cycle? You set up your tank (say, with dead sand and 1lbs/gal of cured dead rock), apply the product, and then it's claimed that you can start adding fish and at least some soft inverts?

If that's so, it seems to me (based simply on my experience with marketing claims ) that they can make the claim because it's "mostly true". Some posters have said they've been successful with this. From what I've heard, you may be pushing it if you suddenly add a high biomass to your new tank, but it also seems to me that it's hard to prove that any problems were because the product didn't work. (they may also have a warning on the label that says "don't add stuff too fast" )

Finally, what if you add Biospira to a brand new tank that's just gotten an appropriate amount of cured live rock and live sand? Does the rock and sand effectively make the Biospira superfluous?

KoAT

 

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Because that sadly isn't how it works with this hobby. You'd be surprised how many arguments my wife gets into with customers who want to put a saltwater fish in freshwater. Sales refused because they want to do it anyway even if it's going to die. The scenario isn't ideal by mine or some others standards but at least they are trying to do right by the animal now. Lesson learned hopefully

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Good for your wife. I doubt if some vendors even have that much care for their animals (and if I doubted, there's no way I'd buy from them!! Ref: the thread currently in Responsible Reefkeeping about big box Pet-places).

 

[Dealseer]

i see them but i dont trust em! im sure there a lot of reefers that use em and swear by it but why rush where your dumping tons of money.
I mean it takes what about 30-60days to cycle a tank.

Don't know about "trust", but I love bottled bacteria.

 

[gone fishin]

I tried a bacteria in a bottle product a number of years ago and did not see much upside to it. I have not tried the biospira product. I have been curious about it and if I start up another tank I think I may give it a try.

 

[Elricsfate]

I think adding a bacteria source and then immediately adding fish is risky and a bit irresponsible to say the least. You owe it to the animal that you are taking from the nice, clean, "cycled" ocean to at LEAST drop some ammonia in the tank to see how it's handled.

Why not test the effectiveness with ammonia or fish food instead of with a living animal?

Here is the information straight from IO regarding Bio Spira:

I don't see how I am being irresponsible, if they are providing accurate information. If they are not, then they are being irresponsible.

BIO-Spira® makes your marine aquarium fish-safe instantly.

With patented nitrifying bacteria, BIO-Spira® accelerates the establishment of the bio-filter in newly set up saltwater aquariums. The live bacteria start working immediately to provide a safe and healthy environment for your fish without the long wait. BIO-Spira can also be used after a water change, when adding new fish or after medicating.

"¢ Live nitrifying bacteria start working immediately to reduce dangerous ammonia and nitrite

"¢ BIO-Spira prevents new tank syndrome

"¢ The patented mix of Nitrococcus, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira is proven to work

"¢ Shelf stable formula requires no refrigeration

"¢ 100ml treats up to 30 gallons; 250ml treats up to 75 gallons; 5ml treats 10 gallons

 

[Elricsfate]

I do appreciate all of the input. As with all things, some people will agree and others will disagree. However, as the tone of some replies seems to indicate that there are those who believe I don't give a crap about the well being of the animals, I want to clear that up.

First, 1 fish in a 75g tank is not a heavy bio load.

Second, I am testing the water twice a day to make sure all is well, and if I need to do water changes I am prepared to do so.

Third, I do not know what kind of moron wants to put a saltwater fish in a freshwater tank, but I am not that kind of moron.

Fourth, "Because that's how everyone else does it" isn't a good enough reason for me to do something.

Fifth, I am relying on a product produced by a manufacturer that hobbyists all over the world rely on for various products (especially salt) which are vital to the lives of their animals. I didn't go buy Jimbob's Super Secret Aquarium Stuff.

Lastly, while everyone is debating whether this process will work or not, or kill the fish or not...the fish is doing just fine, the numbers are acceptable, and the product appears to be doing what it claims to do.

I am the kind of person who will spend $500 trying to save a $5 fish. I am not going to blithely sit here and watch the situation deteriorate. But the simple fact is, *IF* this product and others like it actually do what they claim (and thus far it appears they do), then there is no reason not to use them. There is only one way to get firsthand experience...

 

[75mixedreef]

When upgrading to a new tank with additional volume, more rock, and new sand (with some seeded) should I put in a bottle of bacteria to be safe? I don't have any fish right now, only corals and one or two peppermint shrimp. Would a bottle of bacteria help at all? Would it hurt at all?

I don't want to lose any corals so I'm willing to consider the snake oil if there seems to be a reason to.

 

[Elricsfate]

I don't want to lose any corals so I'm willing to consider the snake oil if there seems to be a reason to.

I'm not going to offer anyone advice.

However, I will say this. If this stuff is snake oil then we all need to stop buying Instant Ocean products, because they make it. We also need to stop shopping at BRS and Marine Depot, because they sell it.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[GimpyFin]

You're completely fine doing what you did to start the tank, especially with just one fish. I've started all my tanks and QT tanks over the last few years with it. Not once have I harmed a fish or had an ammonia problem doing this. I understand skepticism, but IMO, anybody that thinks there's some sort of cruelty or bad practice by using this is just being ignorant. It's not a magic potion sold off some cheesy infomercial that's going in your tank. It's bottled bacteria that helps break down ammonia, plain and simple. All your doing is shortcutting a normal cycle by adding bacteria that would otherwise slowly develop with an ammonia source.

 

[75mixedreef]

I'm not going to offer anyone advice.

However, I will say this. If this stuff is snake oil then we all need to stop buying Instant Ocean products, because they make it. We also need to stop shopping at BRS and Marine Depot, because they sell it.

I'll leave it at that.

Snake oil doesn't mean scam, it means that what's being sold doesn't live up to its claimed effects. Some bottled bacteria brands are not packaged properly and all you get is dead bacteria. I don't want to add a mix of dead and live bacteria that will cause its own mini cycle, that might work out fine for a new tank, but I'm doing an upgrade with quite a bit invested in corals.

All I mean by snake oil is that I am skeptical of its claims. You are taking it to an extreme with over exaggerated conclusions. BRS and Marine Depot sell plenty of products that some people find useless. Some people think certain fish foods are more harm than good. If people buy something then a seller will continue to sell it. That just makes good business sense.

 

[gone fishin]

Easy there on Jimbob, :lmao: he has feelings. Or is that BillyBob never mind

 

[Elricsfate]

Snake oil doesn't mean scam, it means that what's being sold doesn't live up to its claimed effects. Some bottled bacteria brands are not packaged properly and all you get is dead bacteria. I don't want to add a mix of dead and live bacteria that will cause its own mini cycle, that might work out fine for a new tank, but I'm doing an upgrade with quite a bit invested in corals.

All I mean by snake oil is that I am skeptical of its claims. You are taking it to an extreme with over exaggerated conclusions. BRS and Marine Depot sell plenty of products that some people find useless. Some people think certain fish foods are more harm than good. If people buy something then a seller will continue to sell it. That just makes good business sense.

All good. To my mind, "snake oil" implies scam. If I thought any company in this process was scamming people I'd stop doing business with them.

In any event, I have no idea with regard to the formulation and whether it would work for you or not. All I can say at the moment is that it is working for me, in my situation.

I'll update the thread if the fish dies, or the levels go up or down in any significant way, or anything else that I think might be useful to others happens.

In the end, learning from each other's experiences is what this whole thing is supposed to be about.

 

[Rython]

I do appreciate all of the input. As with all things, some people will agree and others will disagree. However, as the tone of some replies seems to indicate that there are those who believe I don't give a crap about the well being of the animals, I want to clear that up.

First, 1 fish in a 75g tank is not a heavy bio load.

Second, I am testing the water twice a day to make sure all is well, and if I need to do water changes I am prepared to do so.

Third, I do not know what kind of moron wants to put a saltwater fish in a freshwater tank, but I am not that kind of moron.

Fourth, "Because that's how everyone else does it" isn't a good enough reason for me to do something.

Fifth, I am relying on a product produced by a manufacturer that hobbyists all over the world rely on for various products (especially salt) which are vital to the lives of their animals. I didn't go buy Jimbob's Super Secret Aquarium Stuff.

Lastly, while everyone is debating whether this process will work or not, or kill the fish or not...the fish is doing just fine, the numbers are acceptable, and the product appears to be doing what it claims to do.

I am the kind of person who will spend $500 trying to save a $5 fish. I am not going to blithely sit here and watch the situation deteriorate. But the simple fact is, *IF* this product and others like it actually do what they claim (and thus far it appears they do), then there is no reason not to use them. There is only one way to get firsthand experience...

Well said.

 

[jason2459]

Snake oil doesn't mean scam, it means that what's being sold doesn't live up to its claimed effects. Some bottled bacteria brands are not packaged properly and all you get is dead bacteria. I don't want to add a mix of dead and live bacteria that will cause its own mini cycle, that might work out fine for a new tank, but I'm doing an upgrade with quite a bit invested in corals.

All I mean by snake oil is that I am skeptical of its claims. You are taking it to an extreme with over exaggerated conclusions. BRS and Marine Depot sell plenty of products that some people find useless. Some people think certain fish foods are more harm than good. If people buy something then a seller will continue to sell it. That just makes good business sense.

There is most definitely live bacteria in Bio-Spira.