Bring out your rares!!! for the BAR swap
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Thales
Active member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9059904#post9059904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
The rarest ones don't even have names yet
I am trying to decide on a naming convention -
Sex - Dirty Sanchez Acro
Religion - The Acro of Turin
Politics - Republican Sewer Zoa
We're going by the classic definition of rare:
not widely distributed; "rare herbs"; "rare patches of green in the desert"
not widely known; especially valued for its uncommonness; "a rare word"; "rare books"
We're looking for corals that can't be found via most online stores. Many of the LE's have made their way to the "common, yet still very attractive" state. We're not classifying those as rare at this event.
not widely distributed; "rare herbs"; "rare patches of green in the desert"
not widely known; especially valued for its uncommonness; "a rare word"; "rare books"
We're looking for corals that can't be found via most online stores. Many of the LE's have made their way to the "common, yet still very attractive" state. We're not classifying those as rare at this event.
tacocat
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9060014#post9060014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Thales
I am trying to decide on a naming convention -
Sex - Dirty Sanchez Acro
Religion - The Acro of Turin
Politics - Republican Sewer Zoa
Socio-Economics - Po', Broke and Lonley Paly
I've been trying to get whodah to change zoaid.com to sewerpolypid.com. No luck so far, but I'm being hopeful.
I agree w/ Gresham, while some LE's are rare, some are not due to their level of local distribution. And some non-LE's are far rarer than any LE on the lists. For example, I have a second strain of pulsing sinularia (Bookfish red) which is different than the tan one I got from Calfo many years ago. It isn't on any list and I've only given it to 2 or 3 people in the club. It isn't super pretty (subjective) and it grows fairly quick and is pretty bulletproof. It's my second "rarest" coral simply because it hasn't been widely distributed.
I'll try and make some time tonight/tomorrow to review all the submissions and thanks for being patient, it's a busy time for me right now.
Unarce
Unshackled
By Jim's and Gresham's definition of the category, I would agree with their decision making process.
I know I've done it differently in the last two swaps (Regional and BAR), but my emphasis was always on generational pieces, where I felt the true value lied. That's the main reason why I was not particular about allowing any 'collectible' or 'LE' pieces.
There is a grey area, where some feel certain collectible pieces warrant their value because they've been captive-grown for years, whereas other pieces might only have been around for a year or two. Than, there's the rare stuff that's rather new, being the 1st or 2nd generation of a wild piece. It all really depends on how you want to view it
I know I've done it differently in the last two swaps (Regional and BAR), but my emphasis was always on generational pieces, where I felt the true value lied. That's the main reason why I was not particular about allowing any 'collectible' or 'LE' pieces.
There is a grey area, where some feel certain collectible pieces warrant their value because they've been captive-grown for years, whereas other pieces might only have been around for a year or two. Than, there's the rare stuff that's rather new, being the 1st or 2nd generation of a wild piece. It all really depends on how you want to view it
Thales
Active member
A 'rare' is a subjective thing, so for the big swap every year we have a team of people to help determine what might be considered 'rare'.
You begin to guess by doing some of your own research.
Frags.org is a good place to look, as is this forum. We hope that before people post a pic for consideration that they have some idea that what they are asking about is actually 'rare' and not just randomly hoping.
Thales
Active member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9075533#post9075533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jwedehase
Ha! Good point, Thales. Sorry for that.
BTW, I have some tan ball sponge, and some green striped mushrooms. Are either of those rare?
Someones beggin' for a 30 minute iodine dip!
seminolecpa
Premium Member
So what was the verdict on idaho grape and some of the zoas like armor of god and tubs blue?
dots
Premium Member
This is very interesting because I have been pondering the very question for awhile. Recently I have taken another step and decided to go more "rare"
But what is rare, and who makes the determination?
Upon asking a few in this hobby who I respect their opinion of and have been at this longer than I, and reading up a little....and especially threads as this for example, due to the still infancy nature of this hobby,.....maybe 20yrs,(obviously debatable but not my point.). Perhaps there should be a concensus on this topic because it seems to have an impact on our hobby because it is not only that, but a business and a livelyhood for others. Therefor the "rare" classification should come out of a mixture of the hobby side and business side.
Since the Tyree "LE" and that site seems to be universal, I have began to formulate my own definitions for the "rare" category, and what contributes to it. Perhaps another thread may need to be created in multiple forums to debate this topic, but I would like to outline my thought and definitions here if you all don't mind since on that subject.
Based on some of the Tyree names and my own interpretation of them I would like to suggest the following. Since I am still figuring this out for myself and if it is plainly written somewhere else, please forgive my ignorance........but if that was true I would have expected a link to it already.
Rare/Limited Edition: A coral that has demonstrated an exceptional proven (keyword) characteristic in captivity during a trial period. These characteristic may include one or more of: rare specie, unusual color combination, heavier resitance to disease than the typical example, morph of a specie......obviously the more of the characteristics, the even more rarer it is to determine final market value. The maximum time a coral should be considered rare is 5yrs. Using a time limit rather than percieved availability is easier to determine for classification. It would be assumed that after 5 yrs have passed and the coral is still popular that it would be abundant. After 5yrs and it is still popular it would fall into a "vetreran" classification. If the coral is determined to be LE after the inital "Evaluation" period and fails for some reason due to mass disease or a flop in popularity, it becomes a "Retired" coral.
Evaluation: A coral that has been seen fit due to its unique characteristics by a body....say importers who do this all the time and see EVERY type of coral available.........a believe it is a candidate for "Rare or LE" status. A determined time (1yr?) to proof out the coral is needed in aquarium settings to hence evaluate it.
Retired: A coral that passed the time limit of "evaluation" and was granted "LE/Rare" status but had complications to keeping it successfully......basicly a dud LE. Good or Bad is the question and debateable.....couldn't this be SUPER rare so rare most can't keep it or turns out to brown after a number of years or RTN magnet
Veteran: A coral that has been a LE for the maximum time limit and is still popular as an old reliable....Steve Elias stag maybe?....these are the OG pieces that just because they aint the new kids in town and are more plentiful does not mean they don't deserve the ranking of a brown digitata.
Classification of these:
Who decides this? Good question, perhaps it is time due to the popularity and the large business that supports this hobby that there needs to be a body or organization that keeps both parties (hobbists and business) at hand and "regulating" these titles and determines which coral is which. I could see if the importers were just involved with this, EVERYTHING would be LE to drive hype. However, if hobbist were to control is solely, it could harm the people who depend in this hobby to make a living.
I would suggest that the industry pics the evaluation corals and distibutes them as such under the name of "evaluation acropora secale" for instance. Obviously there would be a deluge of "evaluation this or thats" after that initial period of 1 yr say and it been proofed a body of hobbists, reps from local clubs meet once a year at say MACNA or something to debate each coral for LE status. A limited number (5-10 each group of SPS, LPS, softie) will be granted LE status each year garunteing that not every "evaluation" coral will be a "LE" keeping the risk there that just because its an evaluation coral doesn't mean its valuable in order to keep the industry in check and not turn everything into "evaluation" to drive up demand and price of evaluation corals......meaning.....it might be, but probably won't be an LE. On the flip side, securing the value and excusivity of the "LE/Rare" classification and price it commands. Once the Evaluation coral is classified as "LE/Rare" the body votes on the name predetermined regional suggestions on a ballot based on coloration or finder or region popular for it.....ie Cali/Oregon Tort. This would avoid multiple corals being named different names. ie: Shade of Fall, Pink Lemonade.
Cost: How is it determined and why?
Obviously supply and demand, others that contribute are growth rate and level of difficulty to keep......are LE zoas worth more than LE SPS if by nature SPS are harder to keep than zoas?.....I think not. There for a range for each classification is needed to eliminate price gouging. Other factors that could determine price are homegrown vs aquacultured vs wild colonies.......which do you value more? But classification of the coral be it Evaluation, LE/Rare, Veteran, or Retired should be about 50% of this price with things like availability considered.
Other issues:
Now, we all don't believe that there is only one Superman Danae in the ocean do we? We obviously have seen a coral at one time or another that "looks" like the original but isn't....what about those. How to solve this issue so hobbist and industry succeed. Based on the LE gudelines an evaluation coral is selected. during that time ALL simillar candidates are considered to be "evaluation" based on that criteria.......after the evaluation time period the 5-10 best examples of this type of coral are presented.....the best is choosen the be the "original" based on the "ultimate" or "most representive" example of the coral. This is the mother colony of the "LE/Rare" and hence is the "named" coral. look alikes will still command a price but more along the lines of a "retired" LE or "Veteran" but never equal in value to "Real Deal". This could create a new classification named "False" going with the Percula naming and "True" for the LE/Rare.
I think something like I have suggested would help grow our hobby and industry and allow them to grow in both interests in an exciting way and brings both aspects of it together based on mutually benificial interests.
I am sure there is much to add, but it is a complicated topic that is very large and will continue to grow as prices elevate and "LEs" become more and more for people to make money based on percieved availability which may be true or not.
Until this all happens, perhaps a model of this kind could be used in local frag swaps to determine "rare"
But what is rare, and who makes the determination?
Upon asking a few in this hobby who I respect their opinion of and have been at this longer than I, and reading up a little....and especially threads as this for example, due to the still infancy nature of this hobby,.....maybe 20yrs,(obviously debatable but not my point.). Perhaps there should be a concensus on this topic because it seems to have an impact on our hobby because it is not only that, but a business and a livelyhood for others. Therefor the "rare" classification should come out of a mixture of the hobby side and business side.
Since the Tyree "LE" and that site seems to be universal, I have began to formulate my own definitions for the "rare" category, and what contributes to it. Perhaps another thread may need to be created in multiple forums to debate this topic, but I would like to outline my thought and definitions here if you all don't mind since on that subject.
Based on some of the Tyree names and my own interpretation of them I would like to suggest the following. Since I am still figuring this out for myself and if it is plainly written somewhere else, please forgive my ignorance........but if that was true I would have expected a link to it already.
Rare/Limited Edition: A coral that has demonstrated an exceptional proven (keyword) characteristic in captivity during a trial period. These characteristic may include one or more of: rare specie, unusual color combination, heavier resitance to disease than the typical example, morph of a specie......obviously the more of the characteristics, the even more rarer it is to determine final market value. The maximum time a coral should be considered rare is 5yrs. Using a time limit rather than percieved availability is easier to determine for classification. It would be assumed that after 5 yrs have passed and the coral is still popular that it would be abundant. After 5yrs and it is still popular it would fall into a "vetreran" classification. If the coral is determined to be LE after the inital "Evaluation" period and fails for some reason due to mass disease or a flop in popularity, it becomes a "Retired" coral.
Evaluation: A coral that has been seen fit due to its unique characteristics by a body....say importers who do this all the time and see EVERY type of coral available.........a believe it is a candidate for "Rare or LE" status. A determined time (1yr?) to proof out the coral is needed in aquarium settings to hence evaluate it.
Retired: A coral that passed the time limit of "evaluation" and was granted "LE/Rare" status but had complications to keeping it successfully......basicly a dud LE. Good or Bad is the question and debateable.....couldn't this be SUPER rare so rare most can't keep it or turns out to brown after a number of years or RTN magnet
Veteran: A coral that has been a LE for the maximum time limit and is still popular as an old reliable....Steve Elias stag maybe?....these are the OG pieces that just because they aint the new kids in town and are more plentiful does not mean they don't deserve the ranking of a brown digitata.
Classification of these:
Who decides this? Good question, perhaps it is time due to the popularity and the large business that supports this hobby that there needs to be a body or organization that keeps both parties (hobbists and business) at hand and "regulating" these titles and determines which coral is which. I could see if the importers were just involved with this, EVERYTHING would be LE to drive hype. However, if hobbist were to control is solely, it could harm the people who depend in this hobby to make a living.
I would suggest that the industry pics the evaluation corals and distibutes them as such under the name of "evaluation acropora secale" for instance. Obviously there would be a deluge of "evaluation this or thats" after that initial period of 1 yr say and it been proofed a body of hobbists, reps from local clubs meet once a year at say MACNA or something to debate each coral for LE status. A limited number (5-10 each group of SPS, LPS, softie) will be granted LE status each year garunteing that not every "evaluation" coral will be a "LE" keeping the risk there that just because its an evaluation coral doesn't mean its valuable in order to keep the industry in check and not turn everything into "evaluation" to drive up demand and price of evaluation corals......meaning.....it might be, but probably won't be an LE. On the flip side, securing the value and excusivity of the "LE/Rare" classification and price it commands. Once the Evaluation coral is classified as "LE/Rare" the body votes on the name predetermined regional suggestions on a ballot based on coloration or finder or region popular for it.....ie Cali/Oregon Tort. This would avoid multiple corals being named different names. ie: Shade of Fall, Pink Lemonade.
Cost: How is it determined and why?
Obviously supply and demand, others that contribute are growth rate and level of difficulty to keep......are LE zoas worth more than LE SPS if by nature SPS are harder to keep than zoas?.....I think not. There for a range for each classification is needed to eliminate price gouging. Other factors that could determine price are homegrown vs aquacultured vs wild colonies.......which do you value more? But classification of the coral be it Evaluation, LE/Rare, Veteran, or Retired should be about 50% of this price with things like availability considered.
Other issues:
Now, we all don't believe that there is only one Superman Danae in the ocean do we? We obviously have seen a coral at one time or another that "looks" like the original but isn't....what about those. How to solve this issue so hobbist and industry succeed. Based on the LE gudelines an evaluation coral is selected. during that time ALL simillar candidates are considered to be "evaluation" based on that criteria.......after the evaluation time period the 5-10 best examples of this type of coral are presented.....the best is choosen the be the "original" based on the "ultimate" or "most representive" example of the coral. This is the mother colony of the "LE/Rare" and hence is the "named" coral. look alikes will still command a price but more along the lines of a "retired" LE or "Veteran" but never equal in value to "Real Deal". This could create a new classification named "False" going with the Percula naming and "True" for the LE/Rare.
I think something like I have suggested would help grow our hobby and industry and allow them to grow in both interests in an exciting way and brings both aspects of it together based on mutually benificial interests.
I am sure there is much to add, but it is a complicated topic that is very large and will continue to grow as prices elevate and "LEs" become more and more for people to make money based on percieved availability which may be true or not.
Until this all happens, perhaps a model of this kind could be used in local frag swaps to determine "rare"
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