Building Big Bertha: 800G
- Thread starter bbrantley
- Start date
Time for a fun update. The rest of James' fine handiwork arrived today! This time, the pallet and crate was "small" enough that the driver could unload it, and he even did so without tearing off another chunk of the tree that overhangs my driveway. Of course, mother nature decided to dump snow on us the whole time we were out there shoving it around, but the ground was warm enough that it was, well, just mud. Fun, messy, and cold.
I got the crate into the garage, popped it open, and everything looked pristine, so I signed the driver off and bid him farewall until next time when he comes to deliver my base rocks.
The electrician stopped by for about the fifth time this week. Great guy, but man, what a lot of iterations to get that generator wired in. Earlier this week I had the dubious honor of trying to choose which circuits to move over to the generator from the main house box. Of course all the Bertha circuits (5 of them) were in there, as was the well pump, refrigerator/freezer, and the furnace (electric ignitor) and pump for the radiant floor heat. I hadn't given any of my usual over-analysis to the other circuits that might make the house more livable in the event of a major outage, so of course I stood there saying, "Umm... uh... how about the bathroom lights?" I think finally he just picked some for me.
So, anyway, today was the last day that the house was "blinking" on and off a few times an hour, and theoretically everything is wired up. The inspectors have to sign off on the gas line and we need a battery for the generator's starter circuitry before we can test the thing, but it's close.
And, did I mention the tanks came? Well, it was about 22 at 3pm after the freight deliveryman left, and I know James doesn't like it when his babies get frozen, so I pulled out my ceramic heater and set it up next to the tanks to keep them well-incubated. Buzzzzzzzzzz... that was kind of the sound of the fan in the heater trying to spin up. No dice. No heat. (Well, I think it would have made the same amount of heat, but it would have all stayed in that enclosure and eventually melted it into a pile of gooey plastic.)
So I drove down to Boulder to find another ceramic heater at around 7pm. Wouldn't ya know, Home Depot replaced its enormous section of heaters with... an enormous section of air-conditioners. That sounds like smart analysis to me (we've had some warm days lately, and I bet people get motivated after the first hot one). The problem is that they didn't leave any heaters. Not even one small shelf. And it was below freezing outside. Just silly. Went to Target, same deal.
Throwing my virtual hands up in disgust, I bought a different $100 of gadgets at HD and went back up the hill to the house. I decided I would try to move the tanks inside by myself. Originally I had planned to wait until one of my contractor's minions would come out and help me carry them, but I decided I could do it.
Err... can you spell, n-o-t t-r-i-v-i-a-l. My driveway is compacted gravel/dirt, so I had to build a Rube Goldberg contraption of plywood paths, winches, and foam trails all across my "yard" to get the things up into the house. The sump is about 300 pounds and was by far the hardest one. The little propagation tank I could pretty much lift myself and just carry in. The refugium was too long and heavy for my poor, tired arms, so I had to muscle it in as well.
Anyway, here's the sump on its final dolley, vertical, getting wedged into position for dropping into its final resting spot:
Two dolleys makes all the difference in the world... here it is flipped down to horizontal and onto a different dolley: (Original dolley already removed from picture just to confuse you.)
And..... action. Sump in place!
The other two tanks just got shoved into the room for now, as my energy was waning and I mostly just wanted them in a warm place. There are no stands for them yet...
...and, moreover, the tank room still has the old 225G (Mark, are you going to buy this thing or what?) where the new tanks will go, so it is now super crowded and messy in there:
I'll be taking an iterative approach to plumbing, so the first thing will be to plumb Bertha, the sump, and the skimmer all together with one return. The moment that tests dry, I can start putting in real water, salt, sand, and rock! Of course, that whole process will probably take at least a month, so in the meantime the other tanks can be built into place and plumbed into the system. (There will eventually be a redundant Bertha return pump, too.)
I may even get to start on that tomorrow, but we'll see how the hands feel in the morning. Good night!
Ben
I got the crate into the garage, popped it open, and everything looked pristine, so I signed the driver off and bid him farewall until next time when he comes to deliver my base rocks.
The electrician stopped by for about the fifth time this week. Great guy, but man, what a lot of iterations to get that generator wired in. Earlier this week I had the dubious honor of trying to choose which circuits to move over to the generator from the main house box. Of course all the Bertha circuits (5 of them) were in there, as was the well pump, refrigerator/freezer, and the furnace (electric ignitor) and pump for the radiant floor heat. I hadn't given any of my usual over-analysis to the other circuits that might make the house more livable in the event of a major outage, so of course I stood there saying, "Umm... uh... how about the bathroom lights?" I think finally he just picked some for me.
So, anyway, today was the last day that the house was "blinking" on and off a few times an hour, and theoretically everything is wired up. The inspectors have to sign off on the gas line and we need a battery for the generator's starter circuitry before we can test the thing, but it's close.
And, did I mention the tanks came? Well, it was about 22 at 3pm after the freight deliveryman left, and I know James doesn't like it when his babies get frozen, so I pulled out my ceramic heater and set it up next to the tanks to keep them well-incubated. Buzzzzzzzzzz... that was kind of the sound of the fan in the heater trying to spin up. No dice. No heat. (Well, I think it would have made the same amount of heat, but it would have all stayed in that enclosure and eventually melted it into a pile of gooey plastic.)
So I drove down to Boulder to find another ceramic heater at around 7pm. Wouldn't ya know, Home Depot replaced its enormous section of heaters with... an enormous section of air-conditioners. That sounds like smart analysis to me (we've had some warm days lately, and I bet people get motivated after the first hot one). The problem is that they didn't leave any heaters. Not even one small shelf. And it was below freezing outside. Just silly. Went to Target, same deal.
Throwing my virtual hands up in disgust, I bought a different $100 of gadgets at HD and went back up the hill to the house. I decided I would try to move the tanks inside by myself. Originally I had planned to wait until one of my contractor's minions would come out and help me carry them, but I decided I could do it.
Err... can you spell, n-o-t t-r-i-v-i-a-l. My driveway is compacted gravel/dirt, so I had to build a Rube Goldberg contraption of plywood paths, winches, and foam trails all across my "yard" to get the things up into the house. The sump is about 300 pounds and was by far the hardest one. The little propagation tank I could pretty much lift myself and just carry in. The refugium was too long and heavy for my poor, tired arms, so I had to muscle it in as well.
Anyway, here's the sump on its final dolley, vertical, getting wedged into position for dropping into its final resting spot:
Two dolleys makes all the difference in the world... here it is flipped down to horizontal and onto a different dolley: (Original dolley already removed from picture just to confuse you.)
And..... action. Sump in place!
The other two tanks just got shoved into the room for now, as my energy was waning and I mostly just wanted them in a warm place. There are no stands for them yet...
...and, moreover, the tank room still has the old 225G (Mark, are you going to buy this thing or what?
) where the new tanks will go, so it is now super crowded and messy in there:
I'll be taking an iterative approach to plumbing, so the first thing will be to plumb Bertha, the sump, and the skimmer all together with one return. The moment that tests dry, I can start putting in real water, salt, sand, and rock! Of course, that whole process will probably take at least a month, so in the meantime the other tanks can be built into place and plumbed into the system. (There will eventually be a redundant Bertha return pump, too.)
I may even get to start on that tomorrow, but we'll see how the hands feel in the morning. Good night!
Ben
Nope. James taught me that foam sheets are not required, at least on tanks like the ones he builds. Bertha herself, in fact, is not on any foam -- just smooth plywood. The sump is even better, because it's also one-inch thick on all sides, but it will only hold an 18-inch water column, and the floor is rubber and compresses ever so slightly. I believe it will be good to go.
Ben
I dunno, to tell you the truth. To clarify, he actually was just ambivalent -- he agreed it was not a bad idea, but acknowledged that it was okay to skip it.
If you think about it, a perfectly ideal, smooth surface should never need foam. The question, then, is: how much tolerance does the acrylic have for imperfection? I wouldn't even know how to quantify such a thing, but the impression I get is that the acrylic is quiet resilient in the face of minor surface flaws. I suspect a point-loading flaw (like a tiny rock or a nail head) would be potentially disastrous, and that is probably the most significant thing that the foam can help address.
But that's just my instinct. I can assure you there would've been foam under Bertha if James hadn't cleared it.
Ben
p.s. Okay, I'll elaborate even a bit more: when we were applying the plywood surface atop Bertha's steel stand, we encountered a lot of variance in the height of the rubber coating that covers the steel bars. Like, as much as 1/8 or 3/16" in a few places. Part of it was because of flaws in the way the stand was welded, and part of it was just natural fluctuation in a spray-on coating that's not designed for high precision. I had a phone call with James to discuss this, too, and the conclusion was that we had a high likelihood of being just fine if we shot some filler caulking up under the gaps. We didn't do it scientifically, though we were careful. It's still the biggest weakness in the build so far in my opinion... but it was a calculated risk versus removing Bertha, rebuilding the stand, and remounting everything again. Maybe the fact that this kind of minor imperfection is acceptable gives some insight into how flexible (so to speak) this material is for tanks. Food for thought, anyway.
Hi Ben, glad they made it in good shape...and your instinct is, IMO, correct
My primary focus is on the tank sitting flat on the well supported stand. A layer of something (foam, buna, etc) will eliminate any point loading, but if there's no source of point loading, no *need* for foam. That said, foam is generally not going to hurt and I recommend it as I have no real way of knowing the details of everyone's stands, but it is certainly not a requirement IMO. If the tank sits correctly, it sits correctly, if not - no amount of styrofoam is going to fix it. I'd much rather see someone shim up the stand or plywood as you did. Hope this makes sense.
Gotta remember acrylic is softer than glass (good and bad) so even *minor* point loading is not *necessarily* a big deal as a nail head for example would most likely just embed itself in the acrylic (1" in Bertha's case), though one would obviously want to avoid this. I've never used foam on my personal tanks other than a thin layer of buna between the tank and stand and generally I just use doubled-up 3/4" sanded shop, smooth side up, with nothing between the tank and stand. Since Bertha's stand had this compressive material incorporated in the coating, I feel that's adequate esp considering the bottom pane is 1" material - can easily handle a little variation as the material itself provides a good amount of strength.
FWIW, I've never seen an acrylic tank failure directly attributable to the lack of foam on the stand that common sense wouldn't address. A nail or screw sticking 1/2" out of the stand, would fall under the common sense category
James
Untamed12
New member
Does James even have acrylic thinner than 1"? That sump is nice and seriously overbuilt.
I let the general internet expertise convince me to put foam under my tank. I had not planned for it and it bothered me to do it because it changed my height plans and a lot of things had to adapt to that.
I'm with you...I don't think it is needed as long as the surface was smooth. Have you ever calculated the weight per sq. inch? You'll be surprised at how low it is.
I let the general internet expertise convince me to put foam under my tank. I had not planned for it and it bothered me to do it because it changed my height plans and a lot of things had to adapt to that.
I'm with you...I don't think it is needed as long as the surface was smooth. Have you ever calculated the weight per sq. inch? You'll be surprised at how low it is.
LOL
The sump was made with 1" for a coupla reasons; Ben didn't want any top bracing at all to maintain full access for probes, maintenance, etc.. At 48 x 38" if the tank was made with anything thinner, there would be significant deflection which over time, can cause stress which over time, *could* cause failure, and James doesn't want *that* phone call. Plus - deflection is ugly Only the vertical (structural) panels on the sump are 1", everything else is 1/2" and the two smaller tanks are 1/2" throughout.
James
jnarowe
New member
Thanks for the input James.
In both the case of my display stand and grow-out stand, I felt that foam was needed to deal with irregularities. I used the previously owned heavy built wood stand for my display and didn't entirely trust how true it would be. Also, since the grow-out stand is a SS table, I felt the thermal qualities of foam would be useful too.
I would NEVER install a glass tank without foam though.
In both the case of my display stand and grow-out stand, I felt that foam was needed to deal with irregularities. I used the previously owned heavy built wood stand for my display and didn't entirely trust how true it would be. Also, since the grow-out stand is a SS table, I felt the thermal qualities of foam would be useful too.
I would NEVER install a glass tank without foam though.
cbui2
Premium Member
wow good looking updates ben, just finished most of my plumbing work and I know now how that is already, so have a little fun like I did, also on my generator i had everything prewire in my garage so not alot of modifications will be needed when it arrives since generator will be mounted right next to main panel along with gas, and good luck on everything else..sump look fantastic. James did a great job, wish I would have went with him from the beginning
Wow, I suck at plumbing.
I haven't really done any PVC welding before, but I was 23-for-24 on my first joints. Unfortunately the one joint I screwed up was a serious pain to replace, but I got it on the second try.
Well and good. The problem is some of my components have threaded joints. I used to use all threaded joints... it seemed so easy, and I could undo anything and redo it later if I wanted. Well, I plumbed four bulkheads into the sump's drain ports. Then I plumbed three plugs into three of those bulkheads (since I don't have but one pump so far) and one Dart into the fourth. I also had to use threaded fittings for the Dart's input and output.
Turns out every single one of those threaded, Teflon-taped fittings leaked... some a little faster than others. I guess I was too chintzy with the tape, even though I've probably taped up about 200 joints from my work on my old tank.
Tonight I took them all apart and retaped and replumbed them. Now I have ZERO leaks... but EVERY ONE of my bulkheads leaks. (I took the bulkheads off while working on redoing the threaded fittings.) Argh!!
After draining and reloading the water a bajillion times, I think I have concluded that the Savko bulkheads are a little too small for the Hayward-sized holes (James). I may need to switch to the Haywards just to avoid the hassle. I was able to get two of the bulkheads to stop leaking, but I still have two very slow, pesky drippers. I'm tired of fighting with it now, and experience tells me I may be able to fix it all in 20 minutes when well-rested tomorrow... but... yeesh.
Ben
I haven't really done any PVC welding before, but I was 23-for-24 on my first joints. Unfortunately the one joint I screwed up was a serious pain to replace, but I got it on the second try.
Well and good. The problem is some of my components have threaded joints. I used to use all threaded joints... it seemed so easy, and I could undo anything and redo it later if I wanted. Well, I plumbed four bulkheads into the sump's drain ports. Then I plumbed three plugs into three of those bulkheads (since I don't have but one pump so far) and one Dart into the fourth. I also had to use threaded fittings for the Dart's input and output.
Turns out every single one of those threaded, Teflon-taped fittings leaked... some a little faster than others. I guess I was too chintzy with the tape, even though I've probably taped up about 200 joints from my work on my old tank.
Tonight I took them all apart and retaped and replumbed them. Now I have ZERO leaks... but EVERY ONE of my bulkheads leaks. (I took the bulkheads off while working on redoing the threaded fittings.) Argh!!
After draining and reloading the water a bajillion times, I think I have concluded that the Savko bulkheads are a little too small for the Hayward-sized holes (James). I may need to switch to the Haywards just to avoid the hassle. I was able to get two of the bulkheads to stop leaking, but I still have two very slow, pesky drippers. I'm tired of fighting with it now, and experience tells me I may be able to fix it all in 20 minutes when well-rested tomorrow... but... yeesh.
Ben
AquariumSpecialty
.Registered Member
Ben, for the sake of time, what Size OD PVC pipes are you using for the returns, drains and such? Have you ever seen a PVC pipe bender? Just a thought but they are very slick and I know you are all about slick my former Columbia resident. Yea, don't mess around with those bulkhead fittings. That could be a source of much headache.
Yea, don't mess around with those bulkhead fittings. That could be a source of much headache.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9643219#post9643219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquariumSpecialty
Ben, for the sake of time, what Size OD PVC pipes are you using for the returns, drains and such? Have you ever seen a PVC pipe bender? Just a thought but they are very slick and I know you are all about slick my former Columbia resident.
Hey Scott! The 2" PVC must be about 2.25 OD or somewhere in that range. I have seen those pipe benders, yes, including those fancy ones on your site. I have also seen a video of someone using one, and it looked like a big hassle -- packing it with sand and all. It would definitely be sweet, though.
If I could use the bender to straighten out flex PVC, that would be really cool. As it is, it's mostly unworkable in the 2-inch version. I pretty much have to need a 90-degree sweep every 1.5 feet or I can't use it! The 1-inch does seem to be more amenable to straightening. I guess if you run 100 feet of the 2-inch it would be okay and mostly flatten out...
AquariumSpecialty
.Registered Member
Yea the bender requires a little work but the finished look and advantages over 90 abrupt turns are significant. It would be hard to do on 2" pipe but on 1" and below is nice. The smooth bends and friction loss of the bends don't impede flow as much as PVC fittings either....but don't get me started on hydrodynamics.
P.S. I wasn't suggesting that you do this but just thought you might be interested in knowing about it if you hadn't seen this yet...especially since you are a high tech fish geek...and don't try and deny it.
P.S. I wasn't suggesting that you do this but just thought you might be interested in knowing about it if you hadn't seen this yet...especially since you are a high tech fish geek...and don't try and deny it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9644745#post9644745 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquariumSpecialty
Yea the bender requires a little work but the finished look and advantages over 90 abrupt turns are significant. It would be hard to do on 2" pipe but on 1" and below is nice. The smooth bends and friction loss of the bends don't impede flow as much as PVC fittings either....but don't get me started on hydrodynamics.
P.S. I wasn't suggesting that you do this but just thought you might be interested in knowing about it if you hadn't seen this yet...especially since you are a high tech fish geek...and don't try and deny it.
Okay, okay... I won't deny it.
By the way, my solution to hydrodynamics is not to have any 1-inch PVC at all. Just stick with 1.5 and 2-inch and everything is much more expensive, harder to work with, and pleasantly hydrodynamic!AquariumSpecialty
.Registered Member
You are correct on that...1 1/2" to 2" on an aquarium of this scale is the way to go.
jnarowe
New member
I have 2" flex coming from my overflow drains and it is indeed hard to bend, but it eliminates at least two fittings. Plus it enables me to redirect flow into a different sump if needed, without having to mess with fittings or a saw.
Not sure what you mean by SAVKO BH's versus Hayward...
Follow this link to SAVKO Sched 80. I believe these are the same right?
In the larger sizes I think US Plastics is less expensive though.
Not sure what you mean by SAVKO BH's versus Hayward...
Follow this link to SAVKO Sched 80. I believe these are the same right?
In the larger sizes I think US Plastics is less expensive though.
