Buying and Acclimating fish from divers???

[MatthewLaw]

What authority says that 99% of fish cannot be bred in captivity?

I thought it was well settled and many LFS keep trace amounts of copper in their system to keep ich at bay.

Furthermore what authority says ich is found no where on fish in the ocean? The sickest fish that are infected with ich die. Healthy fish eat them and may get sick themselves. Their healthy system may be able to fight it off normally (or if they die, and others eat them,) BUT being captured and transported many thousands of miles may compromise their immune system and allow the 'dormant' ich to come out when the fish reaches your teach.

Also since when does ich have a ceiling in which it can move? Based on your last statement, this cant be true since ich apparently is found no where on fish in the ocean. BUT, if the fish swims above 3 feet its safe but below its in danger?

Your LFS prices are very high, like 2x as my LFS and I am at least 150 miles from the ocean.

 

[Mark]

I'm sorry if you feel attacked. You asked about acclimating wild caught fish. Whether we are talking freshwater or saltwater, wild fish are full of pathogens and parasites. While you are right about wholesale holding tanks presenting the opportunity to expose the fish to more of these pathogens/parasites, it doesn't dispute the fact that these fish are carriers to begin with. Ich behaves much different in the wild than in aquaria. Wild fish are able to live with parasites and cope, so long as they aren't stressed. There's a reason there are so many fish/crustaceans that etch out a living "cleaning" parasites off other fish. Any diver can point you to a "cleaning station", where you can observe fish stopping by to get ectoparasites removed. And that includes tangs.

To quote someone else:
"wild caught fish had an average of 34 different parasites per animal."

Treating ich with nutrition means that ich will always be present, but your established fish will express an immuno-response after settling in. The problem is when a new fish is added, or your parameters go out of whack. The new stressor suppresses the immune system, and ich finishes the job.

Your signature states "300 GALLON REEF IN THE WORKS". Whether you are adding fish to an established tank, or adding the very first fish to your reef... It doesn't matter. The presence of live rock and inverts excludes you from using any of the effective medications against parasites. Believe me, it's easier to QT, than it is to remove all your fish to a hospital system while leaving your reef fishless for 6 weeks. I've been there.

I still don't understand why so many people are against QT. They get away without one 80% of the time. But it takes one horrible case of velvet/ich/flukes to make most people a convert about the benefits of QT. The same analogy holds true for humans and STD's, and the use of protection.

I'll leave it at that. You asked a question, and then you firmly disagree with the majority of the answers. If you already had your mind made up, then I don't understand asking the question in the first place.

 

[albano]

I hate to admit, but my first shipment from Hawaii (over 20 fish, about 2 years ago) went into a 'fishless' 130g live rock tank...in the next few weeks, I had lost all the fish (tangs, anthias, wrasses, and a few others). Over the years, other tangs and rabbitfish have come down with Ick, in my DTs, multiple times , and it has ALWAYS cleared itself up, and never affected the other tankmates (I do add garlic to the food). But the Ick did not go away in this separate tank, and killed everything...You should be prepared to use copper, JUST in case!
NOW...the really bad part...I had also received fish for 2 other friends, who DID QT the fish...theirs are still doing fine, today!

On a separate note, the air freight bill for a LARGE box of fish, was only $80 to Laguardia airport NYC.

 

[CorkPullerPHL]

OP: You shouldn't feel attacked. These boards are full of the most passionate enthusiasts in the hobby. Most of these people have a strong will to provide the greatest care possible to their tank inhabitants. They also take great joy in seeing the success of others.

I don't think anyone is really against buying fish from a diver, provided all party's take as many precautions as possible to promote the health of the livestock.

You have an ambitious project started. I think everyone who has posted wishes you luck and great success.

That said, there is some really good advice in this thread regarding QT and Acclimation. best wishes.

 

[tcmfish]

There is so much miss information in this thread its ridiculous...

First off...

ROTFLMAO. Cheap fish are usually that, cheap fish. Short term savings may be long term costs. Additionally, when you buy from a "diver" you only get what that diver can capture in their location and can hope he or she decompresses properly. Also, unless that diver is diving a closed circuit rebreather, you also limit the kind of fish you can buy. Have you investigated the permits required to legally import fish?

+1 to that!

Whats with all this attacking?

Not attacking just trying to help.

The use of copper is completely out of the question, copper is more poisonous and dangerous to fish than ich.

This is false, do some research. Cupramine is a solid product.

Lets be realistic. 99% of fish species are unbreedable in captivity.

False, they just haven't been raised yet. Many species commonly breed in many peoples aquariums, just lots of literature says that most fish can't be kept with their same species. This is slowly been proven wrong, and many people are having success breeding and raising many species.

Ick is found NO WHERE on fish in the ocean. A little tid bit: Tangs in the ocean swim in mid waters many feet from the sand below were ich lies making them less likely to have ich. For this reason their slime coats are somewhat thin compared to other fish that thrive on the sand bottom. This is why tangs are more prone to ich in aquariums.

False, provide me some sources if you are going to make statements like this. Like I said before... LFS and wholesalers get ich from fish from the WILD who HAVE ich. If ich is found no where on fish in the ocean, then how did ich get into our tanks? (My original question) Ok, you are wrong (not trying to be mean, but I hope you realize it). Fish carry ich in the wild, but they are exposed to the fluctuating water parameters in our tanks or in shipping bags that put lots of stress on them. The stress causes disease outbreaks. If fish get sick on the wild the weak get weeded out, that is why most fish on the reef look very healthy.

From my understanding the PH and salt lvls in the ocean are a lot higher than the aquarium/store water.

I know you said it wasn't your first rodeo, but with questions like these it makes it seem like it. We try and mimic the ocean, so hopefully our levels are similar to what fish are exposed to in the wild, to again eliminate stress.

I thought it was well settled and many LFS keep trace amounts of copper in their system to keep ich at bay.

Not all LFS... and even if they are running trace levels of copper, it usually isn't enough to kill parasites, just keep them at bay. So you can take a fish out of that light dose of copper and put it in freshwater saltwater and the disease may suddenly outbreak all over the fish. Again, just another reason why you should not trust anyone else's QT and perform your own on all new additions, just to be safe. Better safe than sorry,

Whether we are talking freshwater or saltwater, wild fish are full of pathogens and parasites.

Can't say this enough.

There's a reason there are so many fish/crustaceans that etch out a living "cleaning" parasites off other fish. Any diver can point you to a "cleaning station", where you can observe fish stopping by to get ectoparasites removed.

This is another false statement. Many studies have been done, and they show that the cleaners prefer to eat the mucus off the skin of the fish, and a very small percentage of their diet is actually made up of ectoparasites or crustaceans.

http://glassbox-design.com/2010/male-cleaner-wrasse-punishes-female-for-cheating/

There are other studies and sources, but that is just one that was posted on glass-box.

Treating ich with nutrition means that ich will always be present, but your established fish will express an immuno-response after settling in. The problem is when a new fish is added, or your parameters go out of whack. The new stressor suppresses the immune system, and ich finishes the job.

This is exactly why you should QT. Things aren't always perfect and you don't want all your fish to die because of some parasites that could have easily been prevent with a few weeks of QT.

If you have questions people will be glad to answer them and discuss them, but be open. If lots of people give you an answer different then what you expected, maybe you should go back and research a few things, if you still think they are wrong you can discuss it, but you might find they were right all along.

 

[Mark]

Tim, what about cleaner shrimp? You are right on with the wrasses, but I believed that cleaner shrimp primarily fed on ectoparasites. Not sure about cleaner gobies and juvenile angels.

 

[tcmfish]

I know cleaner shrimp do feed quite a bit on ectoparasites, as for gobies and secondary cleaners. I am not sure. They probably all feed on ectoparasites, it just to what extent? It would be nice to know, but for our purposes it isn't a big deal.

The fish should still be QT to remove parasites and cleaners can still be kept with fish that aren't infected, so you can have the best of both worlds really a healthy fish and you can still observe the symbiotic behavior.

 

[jnc914]

There are actually studies that looked at cleaner shrimp and it was found that they primarily feed of dead skin of the fish. Very little, or no ectoparasites were found in their gut. This is probably the most misunderstood view of so call "cleaner" shrimp. I will track down the specific study, I believe I read it from a link off wet web media and it may have been reposted by John Copps.

Tim- your prior responses were right on. Very accurate and informative info.

 

[Mark]

Thanks Tim and Jason, I didn't know this. Learned something new today.

 

[snorvich]

There are actually studies that looked at cleaner shrimp and it was found that they primarily feed of dead skin of the fish. Very little, or no ectoparasites were found in their gut. This is probably the most misunderstood view of so call "cleaner" shrimp. I will track down the specific study, I believe I read it from a link off wet web media and it may have been reposted by John Copps.

Yes, that is correct. Interestingly enough, scientific studies have shown that: there are no parasites in their guts even when cleaners are put in with fish that are infected AND it turns out that the reason fish go to cleaners is they like to be touched rather than for parasite relief.

 

[zemuron114]

Again, what are you buying... lol this will help

 

[jnc914]

Here is my take on getting fish direct from divers/fisherman/wholesalers is that you MUST QT. I have received 80% of my livestock direct and it takes some skill to address some of the issues they come in with, primarily parasites like fluke, velvet, ich. If you do not have experience with proper acclimation and QT methods, you will likely lose some fish during this period. But after you do it several times and get a good routine, which includes proper medication and parasite control, and maintain a mature QT system your loses should be minimal in the long run. I learned the hard way 3 years ago about just adding fish to the display. A regal angel had velvet and wiped out about 2k worth of fish. It is a hard lesson to learn.

 

[Texastravis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texastravis View Post
The use of copper is completely out of the question, copper is more poisonous and dangerous to fish than ich.
This is false, do some research. Cupramine is a solid product.

Out of the question "FOR ME". Cupramine is a solid product indeed and will kill ick most definately if copper is the choice of treatment for you. My choice of treatment is Hyposalinity, it is a much safer treatment process and MUCH less stressful on the fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texastravis View Post
Lets be realistic. 99% of fish species are unbreedable in captivity.
False, they just haven't been raised yet. Many species commonly breed in many peoples aquariums, just lots of literature says that most fish can't be kept with their same species. This is slowly been proven wrong, and many people are having success breeding and raising many species.

Like most aquarists, tangs, angelfish, triggerfish, etc are my favorites. What fish of these species are bred in captivity on a distributor bases??? None I know of, only clownfish and seahorses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texastravis View Post
Ick is found NO WHERE on fish in the ocean. A little tid bit: Tangs in the ocean swim in mid waters many feet from the sand below were ich lies making them less likely to have ich. For this reason their slime coats are somewhat thin compared to other fish that thrive on the sand bottom. This is why tangs are more prone to ich in aquariums.
False, provide me some sources if you are going to make statements like this. Like I said before... LFS and wholesalers get ich from fish from the WILD who HAVE ich. If ich is found no where on fish in the ocean, then how did ich get into our tanks? (My original question) Ok, you are wrong (not trying to be mean, but I hope you realize it).

mehh I was on drugs when I wrote that statement, was trying to rush off to sleep. Ick is found in the ocean on around 18-22% of fish (Can hunt the study/article down to prove this). 99% of these fish are just carriers meaning they have very few quantities of ich on them but ich nonetheless.

Fish carry ich in the wild, but they are exposed to the fluctuating water parameters in our tanks or in shipping bags that put lots of stress on them. The stress causes disease outbreaks. If fish get sick on the wild the weak get weeded out, that is why most fish on the reef look very healthy.

FALSE: Stress does not cause disease outbreak! Stress simply lowers their immune system making them a bit more succeptable to the disease. Ich will infect both a stressed fish and a comfortable fish....However the comfortable fish has a better chance of fighting off the disease, not only because its less stressed but because he is the one more than likely still eating.

As for the wild....Id love to see some articles about fish dieing from ich in the ocean. Yes the weak are weeded out but not from ich. Ich in the ocean is FAR LESS deadly than in an aquarium. There is far less Ich per area in ocean than there is in aquarium..the ich is much more spread out and not so much free floating. In an aquarium ich will multiply and fill every square inch of an aquarium, virtually suffocating the fish...Impossible for a fish to escape ich in a small aquarium vs the ocean. As stated earlier about tangs swimming off the ocean bottom to avoid ich, YES this is true. The majority of ich in ocean is found sleeping and playing on the sandy bottom, this is why species of fish such as sharks and rays have such a thick slime coat impenetrable by ich! Tangs hang out in high flow waters, off the sandy bottom, swimming 20-30mph through the ocean avoiding ich, this is why their slime coats are thin and acceptable to ich.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texastravis View Post
From my understanding the PH and salt lvls in the ocean are a lot higher than the aquarium/store water.
I know you said it wasn't your first rodeo, but with questions like these it makes it seem like it. We try and mimic the ocean, so hopefully our levels are similar to what fish are exposed to in the wild, to again eliminate stress.

I have always believed that our tank waters meet the same/similar parameters as the ocean, and yes they do. There ARE some differences however...and didnt know if the acclimation process needed to change/inc. For starters the average salinity of ocean is 35%, Thats about 6% higher than my aquarium salinity, this is not what I am worried about. I am much more concerned with PH. PH of ocean is just like our aquariums, 8.1-8.3 however when shipping fish from ocean in bags they will arrive to you with a PH of around 6.6-6.9. My tanks through kalk additions have a PH of around 8.5 Thats a possibility of 1.5-2.0 PH difference which sounds like a horror acclimation to me, I am so used to acclimating from LFS where PH diff is .1-.2. Wholesalers acclimate new arrivals for 8-14 hours.



I am confused on where to get my fish now after these comments. I just dont see how fish from a diver could mean bad news. Lets look at the distribution process.

Divers/Suppliers > Wholesalers/distributors > LFS > my tank

From my understanding the mortality rate of wholesalers acclimating fish from divers is around 2-6%. Why not skip the wholesalers and LFS and go strait to my tank? In terms of disease 20% from ocean have ich while 95% from LFS have ich PLUS they have added stress of 2 shipping processes and several holding tank changes. Divers want reputable names and majority of them will be one on one with u customer service wise to get you what ya need.

Yes Yes, quarantine either way for best results. I am very familiar with ich and its treatment but not so much velvet and flukes, havnt had the occasion...so no comment on those.

 

[LisaD]

To your question, like the others posters, I'd say acclimate like any fish purchase.

I like to buy directly from collectors. I haven't purchased from Hawaiian collectors yet, but have done so from several Florida collectors. IF a collector knows how to handle and pack fish, and will not ship obviously sick animals, I believe you are going to get a potentially healthier fish than from other sources. The fish will still be very stressed from capture and shipping, so disease and parasites are still very likely. A fish from a collector is pretty much straight from the ocean, and likely hasn't been exposed to as much shipping and the stress of being moved from tank to tank in the journey from ocean to e-tailer or LFS. (Major exception, Liveaquaria Diver's Den, since they have a fish health program, QT and make sure the fish is eating before shipping - and BTW, they also recommend QT once you receive the animal). Not all collectors are good collectors, though, so make sure you are buying from someone with a good reputation.

I agree that you need to QT new fish, though I'm not against putting fish that come in all at once from the same source into a well established, cycled tank with no other fish. If the tank can provide a less stressful environment than the QT, then I'd also consider putting the new fish in the tank.

But you are taking a risk of losing all of them, and may well end up having to medicate. If you are doing this, I'd still have a QT/hospital tank ready for any fish that don't look healthy once they arrive so you can separate and treat them at once. If you understand that risks, and are willing to do what needs to be done, then I'd go for it. If you don't want to use copper, quinine sulfate is available for treating ich. It won't kill your biological filter, but will kill any inverts in the tank, including corals and any worms. If you have bristle worms in your tank, and it kills them all, it can cause a dangerous ammonia spike.

 

[davelin315]

I would not say that any fish die of disease in the oceans - they are usually picked off way before that by predation. A fish that is showing any signs of illness is typically the first one to get eaten by predators. There's not many places for a fish to heal up in the wild which is essentially what QT does for them. I am personally in favor of acclimation rather than QT since I don't medicate unless needed. I prefer to buy from my local stores so that I can see what I'm getting into rather than not knowing. I always wonder, if a fish is caught by a diver, does that mean that it's one of the weaker ones since it was able to be caught? I know that a lot of these fish are not, but I always wondered why it's so tough to catch fish in my own tank when they're used to me but a diver can catch a fish in the wide open ocean.

As far as cleaner shrimp are concerned, we had Ed Noga out to our club a few years ago and he cited some studies that confirmed what I thought about cleaners as well, very little of their diet is actually parasitic, and that's usually accidental. They are useful for scraping off the surface so they remove whatever happens to be there so much of what they do as far as cleaning is incidental. I don't remember what he cited, either.

I would say that fish are infected, but healthy immune systems allow them to recuperate and fight off disease. My tank has disease in it, that I'm sure of, but the fish are healthy and they are acclimated, so they can easily fight it off. Fish straight from the ocean haven't had the opportunity to get used to what you're doing to them so it's important to get them used to it in a controlled environment. I actually wonder if the stress of being in a wholesaler can help since they go into a better environment when they get into your tank. Nothing that approaches the ocean, that's for sure, but better than they were held in after being caught.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I'm not saying don't use the diver. Get your fish from the diver. But realize that those other steps usually weed out the unhealthy fish - they're gonna die at the wholesaler or retailer in the first week or two. You no longer get that luxury. It sounds like you've never been on the wholesale/retail side of things, so I'll just tell you that a lot of fish are lost in this process. I think you should use the diver - but there are no steps in place to ensure these fish are healthy before placing them in your tank if you dont QT.

 

[LargeAngels]

Concentration of parasites is MUCH MUCH less in the ocean than a closed circuit aquarium so it is really hard to compare the ocean to an aquarium. Look at the water volume to fish ration between the two.

Hypo does work on ich, but not velvet.

 

[tcmfish]

I don't know if you guys can see this, but some cleaner shrimp do clean:

http://www.springerlink.com.ezproxy.lib.fit.edu/content/bewpml0bxfn6d08a/fulltext.pdf

 

[tcmfish]

Like most aquarists, tangs, angelfish, triggerfish, etc are my favorites. What fish of these species are bred in captivity on a distributor bases??? None I know of, only clownfish and seahorses.

FALSE: Stress does not cause disease outbreak! Stress simply lowers their immune system making them a bit more succeptable to the disease. Ich will infect both a stressed fish and a comfortable fish....However the comfortable fish has a better chance of fighting off the disease, not only because its less stressed but because he is the one more than likely still eating.

First,
Ok, maculosus angels are RAISED for aquaculture and they can be purchased, and RCT used to raise dwarf angels. What I was saying is many fish BREED in our tanks, but not many are RAISED big difference. Its not like freshwater where some fish spawn and raise their own young, raising marine fish is the difficulty. Although engineer gobies to care for their young which is very interesting. Also the queen triggerfish was just spawned and reared in captivity not too long. Many progresses are being made.

Also besides seahorses and clowns, there are many species of pseudochromis, fang blennies, and gobies, that ORA raises. And can be purchased through and LFS that is willing to order from them. Also liveaquaria carries many of their fish.

Second,
So if stress doesn't cause the disease outbreak, would their be a disease outbreak if the fish wasn't stressed?

Davelin, as for catching fish in the ocean many fish are chased into big nets that are laid out on top of the reef so they can easily be picked from the net for capture. I don't know much about collecting, but I do know they do that.

And guys about the parasites and cleaner shrimp normally, I'm right there with you supporting the fact that cleaners don't eat parasites, but I found that study interesting because it showed a few shrimp do eat parasites. The Diver's Den has even had one of the species for sale before that cleans. I was wrong to generalize about all shrimp earlier though.