Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System

[dhnguyen]

Rovert-

So lets just say for sake of the argument that both reactor and 2 part methods require the same amount of prep work and tweaking. That said, I have seen more instances of the reactor going haywire and wrecking the tank than the 2 parts solution. Part of that is due to the perceived notion that a reactor setup is more reliable and stable providing the user with a false sense of security. The more parts and more complexity you have in the mix, the more likely it will fail and that's the truth.

An automated 2 parts method there is only the peristaltic pump to contend with while the Ca reactor have many different pieces of equipment and components which can at any time crap out on you.

With 2 parts if the pump goes out, you can dose manually until you get a replacement pump. The only time I have seen a peristaltic pump go out it stopped dosing altogether. Remember most automated 2 parts systems are only ran for a certain amount of time versus the 24/7 of the cal reactor.

With reactor, if your equipment failed, it may put out too much CO2 which could wreck your system with huge Alk swings. It also maybe weeks before you can replace that failed part(s) in your reactor. A typical reactor being run constantly 24/7 leaves a lot to chance IMO -- too much so.

But like I said before though, dosing 2 parts may become a real PITA if you are dealing with larger systems (300g and larger) as I can see mixing gallons and gallons of the 2 parts per week getting old rather quickly.

Not saying that there is no place for having a ca reactor. But you would be sadly mistaken if you think that having one would make your maintenance routine easier and your tank more stable.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10102215#post10102215 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
Ah. So now we're baking the soda. Two parts and cooking? Suddenly things just got more complicated. Hmmmm... I dunnow.. would a touch of garlic and some cajun spices help?

Or you could just buy washing soda instead of baking soda.

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10103203#post10103203 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dhnguyen
... I have seen more instances of the reactor going haywire and wrecking the tank than the 2 parts solution... The more parts and more complexity you have in the mix, the more likely it will fail and that's the truth... With reactor, if your equipment failed, it may put out too much CO2 which could wreck your system with huge Alk swings...

But like I said before though, dosing 2 parts may become a real PITA if you are dealing with larger systems (300g and larger) as I can see mixing gallons and gallons of the 2 parts per week getting old rather quickly.

Just my 2 cents.

Good points. You're absolutely right that more complexity introduces the risk of problems. I guess it could be equally said that if you dose 2 part as a regimen to moderate pH, then if the pump fails, that can lead to a tank crash, also. Or, if you have two separate pumps, it's conceivable that one can fail and you'd be dosing 1-part solution and also throw your paramaters out of whack.

However, risk doesn't mean actualization. One of the reasons that better reactors are using Eheim pumps is their reliability. Though I hope I'm not going to be the test case.

One of the reasons I like the Korallin design is that if something does go wrong where the pump fails, the reactor disables itself. That's a plus for this design.

There are many merits for a 2 part system, I'll grant you. But I keep getting back to the reactor having some unique benefits that are attractive for many scenarios.

 

[RichConley]

Rovert, peristaltic pumps are designed with the operating condition that if they fail, someone dies.

Theyre magnitudes less likely to fail than any one of the components in a calcium reactor setup

 

[dhnguyen]

Yeah but Rovert. You wouldn't be running the peristaltic pump 24/7 like you would a reactor. A failed peristaltic pump running for 1 or 2 hours is very unlikely to crash your tank when compared to a failed reactor pumping huge amount of CO2 24/7


EDIT-- Not to mention that you would also have more time to react when an automated 2 part system goes awry. Often times with a reactor is malfunctioning, by the time you noticed something is wrong it is already too late -- that is unless you're sitting there testing for CO2 output 24/7

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10103494#post10103494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Rovert, peristaltic pumps are designed with the operating condition that if they fail, someone dies.

Theyre magnitudes less likely to fail than any one of the components in a calcium reactor setup

True 'nuff, but people die in hospitals all the time from failed equipment and incorrect readings, and I've been running hobby pumps (Eheim & Mag) 24x7x365 for six years with no failure.

The other factors are those that I intuited that the reactor seems to more closely resemble nature's own process, the potentiality for variances in 2 part purity and concentration, and the requisite work that preparing the solutions requires.

Still on the fence. I think I'll sit this one out for a while and let y'all bat it around for a while.

 

[RichConley]

"The other factors are those that I intuited that the reactor seems to more closely resemble nature's own process, the potentiality for variances in 2 part purity and concentration, and the requisite work that preparing the solutions requires."

only if everthing that is present in coral skeletons breaks down from CO2 to exactly the same components that were originally present. I've never seen CaRx media completely break down, theres always some residue, some I'm pretty sure this isnt the case.


Also, Ca Rx are a notorious source of phosphate.

 

[coralnut99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10073323#post10073323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
They both work well but you will find most reefers use a Ca reactor. I have used 2 part for years and seriously considered going the Ca reactor route during my last tank upgrade. The 2 reasons I didn't were:
1) I was allready very comfortable running a tank with 2 part
2) Even with the purchase of a Litermeter and a second pump it was still much cheaper than a reactor.
With the cost of a reactor you can't forget about CO2 tank (extra tank), pH controller, cost of media and a good quality regulator in addition to the reactor itself.

Just relating my experience, Chris

This pretty much my rationale for sticking with 2 part. Additinally, I would have to search far and wide in my neck of the woods to refill a CO2 bottle. So in my particular case that's a huge inconvenience.

 

[steve the plumb]

I never had the doser fail on me.You do however have to push a button to restart it when the power goes off.It worked flawlessly for the time I was running my tank.I thought about getting a reactor ,don't think I didn't think about it it was just more simple and safer with the 2 part.Its better to run it all day long,mine dosed alk every 1 1/2 and cal every 2 hrs.Little bit at a time keeps the tank nice and stable.Corals grew very well.I can't complain.I had more instability when I dosed manually

 

[rleechb]

True 'nuff, but people die in hospitals all the time from failed equipment and incorrect readings, and I've been running hobby pumps (Eheim & Mag) 24x7x365 for six years with no failure.

The only way a peristaltic could wipe out your tank, is if it lost power, and you happened to miss it for an extended period of time (a week or so). Alk/ca would drop, possibly causing issues with your tank.

However, automatic 2-part dosing represents a single point of failure: the pump. With a reactor, you have the reactor itself, the mixing pump, the feed pump, the solenoid, the co2 tank, the pH controller (a controller is used to shut off your solenoid in case your reactor nukes your tank... not needed in a 2 part method, because it's impossible). You have multiple points of failure with a reactor.

I'd be surprised if you could find a single peristaltic hospital pump pumping too quickly and causing a death. That scenario means the end of a company; if your mag drive/eheim dies... so what?

It really sounds like your mind is made up actually... you should just get the reactor.

 

[Yinger]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10103549#post10103549 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
True 'nuff, but people die in hospitals all the time from failed equipment and incorrect readings

geez... what hospital are you going to? remind me to stay away from there...

 

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10103549#post10103549 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
True 'nuff, but people die in hospitals all the time from failed equipment and incorrect readings


Still on the fence. I think I'll sit this one out for a while and let y'all bat it around for a while.

Very curious as to where you got the info that people die "all the time" from failed equipment.

Like I said earlier in the thread it sounds like you had your mind made up to get a reactor at the begining of the thread and you still do. So why don't you get one

Lots of good (and some not so good ) opinions on both sides in this thread.

Chris

 

[jdieck]

I see a couple of misconceptions regarding equipment failures here.
Any equipment can fail the issue is to have an installation designed to fail and I can say all systems can be equally safe.

Some related notes:
A peristaltic pump alone can fail and usually stop dosing: Worst case your parameters slowly drop your salinity may increase a bit but you have about two to three days to react.

A peristaltic pump connected to a float switch: The float fails to actuate and the pump stay on, then you can seriously overdose the system and potentially cause a flood, you might have two to three hours to react but this system is easy to make safe if installing a proper float valve and use small reservoir.

A calcium reactor CO2 solenoid or controller fails to close: PH in the reactor will drop, you will turn the media to mud but most likely you will not overdose the aquarium as in the majority of the cases the output effluent is already saturated to the max alkalinity and excess CO2 will not be an issue as far as the drip line is not submerged. Planning for this contingency is easy, do not use the controller nor the solenoid valve to control the CO2, set your reactor CO2 with the needle valve to set the PH so the solenoid and controller will be always open, use then to cut off only if the PH goes well beyond the lowest point you could see if the needle valve fails (which is very unlikely)

A calcium reactor recirculation pump fails: Worst scenario, the CO2 accumulates in the reactor and the bubble comes out trough the effluent line, if the line output is not submerged nothing will really happen. Effluent alkalinity will drop and you will under dosing but you will have a couple of days to react also.

So basically what I am trying to describe here is that with proper setting all systems are as safe no matter how many components are involved.

The best guideline I can give you is to set it up assuming it will fail and play the what if game.
Some things I usually keep in mind:
a) Do not submerge a dripping or effluent line
b) Always install a float valve when float switches are involved
c) Do not trust suction cups, look for proper ways to secure whatever is mounted.
d) Use smaller reservoirs for supplements and top off, never connect a top off to a continued water supply (like the RO/DI)
e) Tie / support your CO2 cylinder
f) All electrical connections and wires should be above water level. If under, use water proof NEMA enclosures. Keep all air pumps and ozone systems also above water level.
and use drip loops in the wires.
g) Reduce to a minimum the number of electrical wires submerged and the ones submerged inspect regularly for cracks in the insulation (Powerheads, heaters and such)
h) Whenever possible use low voltage (12 V) devices. Never use 110V on a float switch.
i) Use GFCI for all your aquarium power supply lines
j) Do not use a controller for dosing CO2
k) Do not use a timer to control dosing, get a variable flow doser pump.
l) Do not overdrive any light bulbs
m) Whenever possible use slip glued piping rather than threaded connections or hose inserts
n) Whenever possible use a water on the floor alarm and use a drip or flood pan.
o) Whenever working around the tank use a rubber mat to stand on
p) Insure proper grounding of all your electrical equipment
q) Keep your system and under the stand well ventilated
r) Keep your system and equipment neat and clean, dust off any salt misting around the sump.
s) Frequently inspect for and immediately repair any leaks no matter how small.
t) Frequently clean overflow combs from coralline and algae accumulation
u) Always use syphon break orifices where back syphon is likely
v) Use a small amount of silicone grease to lubricate any O rings used for sealing (Do not use it on bulkhead packings)
w) Do not overtight Kalk or Ca reactor cover flanges. They should leak if over pressure is applied in case a drip line gets clogged. Plan for a doser leaking or shaft slipping if the line gets plugged.
x) When using magnet cleaners place them against the panes away from each other then slide them one toward the other when attaching them.
y) Use reliable vendors and equipment proved safe, research equipment and designs before any purchases or installation. Fully read, understand and follow all instructions and safety recommendations.
z) Read, research and be patient and think clear, never panic.

Enjoy your safety!

 

[jdieck]

Calculating your cost

Calculating your cost

I see some posts trying to compare costs, for a proper comparison the initial setup cost shall be tied with the on going operational cost and media consumption.
I will suggest the following to approximate a cost comparison:

a) Determine your setup cost (do not forget to add shipping and handling)
b) Assuming your setup shall last at least five years determine the annual cost dividing a above by five
c) determine your alkalinity consumption
d) Use the chart below as a guideline to determine the annual ongoing cost of your supplementation system. (Calcium reactor include CO2 and Power)
e) Add the ongoing annual cost to the initial setup cost and compare.
f) Add to the equation whatever your feelings are regarding convenience, risk and such and make your move and enjoy your new toys!

 

[RichConley]

Ah, I see where my math isnt working with yours....


"Cost per pound of US Gal incl shipping"


I got my two part stuff locally, so its wicked cheap.... like under a $1/lb cheap.

Dowflake/Peladow costs me like $12 for 50lbs
Wash soda costs me like $20 for 50lbs

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10105067#post10105067 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Ah, I see where my math isnt working with yours....

"Cost per pound of US Gal incl shipping"

I got my two part stuff locally, so its wicked cheap.... like under a $1/lb cheap.

Yes, I am using the prices from two part solution price list.
If you get the large bags directly from a depo or similar that will be about one third the cost.

BTW if you are not, try getting a higher grade of washing soda, A&H used as a laundry boost seem to have some issues due to antifoaming agents being added.

 

[RichConley]

Do you happen to have the spreadsheet you're using posted on your website?

I want to try to graph out all my options for my current situation, with my local prices, and see how things work out.


Currently running the reactor, and kalk (5 gal bucket for $20...woot)

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10105127#post10105127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
... A&H used as a laundry boost seem to have some issues due to antifoaming agents being added.

Yep, this is the kind of stuff that just makes me real leery of 2 part systems.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10105172#post10105172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Do you happen to have the spreadsheet you're using posted on your website?

I want to try to graph out all my options for my current situation, with my local prices, and see how things work out.


Currently running the reactor, and kalk (5 gal bucket for $20...woot)

I need to clean it up and organize it to make it a bit more user friendly. PM me your e-mail and I'll send it when I'm done.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10105190#post10105190 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
Yep, this is the kind of stuff that just makes me real leery of 2 part systems.

The pool store stuff, OR real baking soda, doesnt have any of those issues.


Calcium reactor media is mined coral skeletons...they go through a whole lot of processing, and are pulled from the ground. Its not like theres no chance of contamination there.