Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System

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Since we are in a math mode today...

Used MRC reactor...100.00
Used Korralin Reactor...20.00
Ph Controller.....90.00
Regulator...80.00
A.R.M......25.00 (still have half a container)
GenX media...40.00 (still have 3/4 of a container)
CO2 tank and two years worth of gas....80.00 (recent re-fill will last another 6-8 months)
90 gph powerhead....9.00

Somehow I don't see 450.00 as a lot of money for two years worth of reactor and stable calcium, alk and magnesium levels. Maybe I am missing the point and I am just ignorant but when I was dosing I was spending a lot in test kits and aggravation just to keep things halfway stable. Maybe I could dose for 225 a year but why would I put myself through that?

Since I added the reactor I don't worry about testing every other day, the parameters are stable, my grey hair is going away and my corals are growing great. My used reactor, both of them, have worked great. I did rebuild the Korallin but found most of what I needed in my junk bin of plumbing parts. I hooked the MRC back up a while back and have put the Korallin back in the closet. I may make a kalk reactor out of it. :D

Maybe I am just too stupid to use the two part or too frugal, either way I will never go back to the dosing nightmare. To each his own and if it works for you keep doing it.

This hobby is only as expensive as you make it and let it be.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344338#post10344338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sirreal63
Since we are in a math mode today...
Yeah, I agree. The ugly little secret that's not reared its head in all the dialog, is that we've been comparing a DIY strategy with all its idiosyncrasies to a name-brand off the shelf reactor system at list price.

It's a little disingenuous to not compare apples with apples, and factor the difference in cost between the 2 part dosing systems that are, by nature, a DIY solution, and a DIY reactor setup, or one that's a branded off-the-shelf used model. I alluded to this before, but it seems that nobody picked up on it. However, I really didn't expect the stalwart 2part guys to validate my point.

I bought my Korallin reactor setup, with the CO2 bottle 1/3 full, for $340. I feed it off my skimmer pump, so that avoids the expense of an additional pump. I don't need a pH probe to run the thing, because if you get some decent advice (I was helped by dragon_slayer), it's a no-brainer to set up.

Throw in $20 in media, I was running for $360, and the tank has never looked better. For those who are doing the math, that's only a $100 or so delta between a super CaRx and a rudimentary automated 2 part system that I'd need a shoe horn to fit under my tank stand and wind up pulling my hair out over, in the process.

As I said before... Ya' pays yer money, ya' takes yer choice. One size does NOT fit all.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344362#post10344362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
Yeah, I agree. The ugly little secret that's not reared its head in all the dialog, is that we've been comparing a DIY strategy with all its idiosyncrasies to a name-brand off the shelf reactor system at list price.

To be fair the DIY system is pretty much same as the name-brand off the shelf commercial two part systems that have been around forever. They use calcium chloride for calcium , sodium carbonate/bicarbonate for alkalinity and magnesium chloride for magnesium . Only real difference is they skip the mag sulfate so they can put it in two jars rather than three.

Just because you buy your alkalinity buffer (sodium bicarbonate) with a A&H on the front of the box rather than a fish doesn't necessarily make it a DIY solution it just means you are smart enough to buy the exact same material from a cheaper source and you don't care how pretty the label is.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344543#post10344543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by anglecoral
To be fair the DIY system is pretty much same as the name-brand off the shelf commercial two part systems that have been around forever.
I was commenting on the the unfair and misleading price comparison of comparing a 2 part system, to an off the shelf calcium reactor, rather than one that's used, or a home made unit.
 
well the calcium chloride and the bicarb are your medias and the dosing pump is the equipment. You can certainly compare used equipment against each other. A basic used CA RX without a ph controller will be more but not by that much. If you compare brand new equipment the price gap will be much larger.

you can buy a used dual channel medical dosing pump from here for $239 http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/products/nautilis2.html

I think part of the attraction to randy's two part is the low start up costs and high resale value of the dosing pumps so if you find that you don't like it you can dump it for a very minimal loss and you can move on to the CA RX. the media can still be used to raise the levels in your fresh salt water or small adjustments as time goes on.

To be honest they both work well i don't think you would find your self regretting either option .
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344797#post10344797 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snarkys
well the calcium chloride and the bicarb are your medias and the dosing pump is the equipment. so if you wanted to you could compare used equipment against each other i suppose .

you can buy a used dual channel medical dosing pump from here for $239 http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/products/nautilis2.html

I think part of the attraction to randy's two part is the low start up costs and high resale value of the dosing pumps so if you find that you don't like it you can dump it for a very minimal loss and you can move on to the CA RX. the media can still be used to raise the levels in your fresh salt water or small adjustments as time goes on.

To be honest they both work well i don't think you would find your self regretting either option .
Absolutely, the 2 part system has a lot going for it. Prior to starting this thread, I was dosing B-Ionic, and losing my shirt, in the process. It was a total PITA to keep up with the tank demands, and it was costing me a small fortune.

I agree that both 2 part and CaRx are valid methods, with their respective pros and cons. But we need to remember that one size does not fit all.

My beef about this thread is that many of the 2-part guys have been somewhat disingenuous about their presentation. They've been clear about reactor disadvantages, but not equally clear about 2 part disadvantages. Similarly, they've been crisp about the 2-part advantages, but not equally clear about the reactor advantages.

This has crystallized for me, especially now that I've gotten the reactor running and I've seen how easy it really is, and how the 'risks' have been blown out of proportion. However, I'm not hung up on the Rx schema, and have advised a friend who's set up a tank that for her circumstances, the 2 part is definitely the way to go. So nobody can accuse me of being vested in either method, either way. Regretfully, that's not the 'vibe' I've gotten off of some of the other posters to this thread.

Anyway, it's been fun, if nothing else.
 
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aye : )

CA RX, Kalk and 2 parts are all fantastic ways to maintain calcium and alkalinity . I personally suggest the easiest and cheapest option that suits your needs and for most people that is going to be initially raising the levels with bulk material and then using kalk in your top off and water changes. After your tank outgrows these either of the other two options will keep most of us very happy : )
 
Just in case for those who had not read the entire thread and try to do the math, here is from pages 3 and 5:

On supplementation I would say that at the end it almost becomes a matter of personal preference and convenience. Cost wise there seems to be what looks like a significant gap between using aquarium commercial products and using non aquarium products.

A) Two part supplements:
If you are into saving as much as you can, nothing will beat using non aquarium products like Ms Wages Kalk or DIY two (three) part solution using Magflake, Dow Flake and Baking Soda. Just note that although cost is a pro, there is a con in the form of increased risk and less convenience.
So far these product have proven reliable but not a single manufacturer is or will be willing to assure any quality control in those products and given the manufacturing process there is always a good chance of getting Ammonia in the flake products. Ms Wages has in occasion leaves some unidentified brownish residue.
Also; and this is true for all two parts, there seems to be, judging by the posts in the chemistry forum for a higher difficulty in maintaining stable levels and higher chance of over or under dosing.
Commercial aquarium two part supplements will reduce the risk of contamination but will increase the cost.
Finally two part supplements may affect the ionic balance between sodium, chloride and sulfate if used for a long time without proper water changes.

B) Kalk dripping:
This can be one of the cheapest ways of supplementing if using a simple drip jug using a food Kalk like Ms Wages.
Addition of a reactor, doser pump and top off plus timers will increase the initial investment.
Unfortunately Kalk addition has a limitation. As it replaces the evaporation, the maximum amount of calcium and alkalinity to be added is limited by the amount of daily evaporation in the tank (see chart below). In my experience, although Kalk can cope with the consumption of a lightly loaded or softies tank, I yet have not seen an sps loaded tank that do not require a second form of supplementation.
Evaporation.gif


C) Calcium Reactor:
A properly set up reactor is by far the most convenient of the supplementation methods and the one that might have the highest capacity for addition.
Although on a per unit of alkalinity the reactor media is the cheapest of the supplements, the initial cost of the reactor and peripherals makes the overall system more expensive for small to medium size systems.
In addition to the initial cost, a calcium reactor usually will require more experience to achieve the proper set up and trouble free operation.

Which one to use??
There are basically two factors that affect the decision, convenience and cost.
convenience wise if addition every two or three days is not an issue and the system is relatively small (a nano) a two part commercial or DIY additive will be convenient (if not basically the only alternative), as the tank gets larger and consumption increase, preparing the supplements and having to dose daily can turn into an undesirable chore so automation starts to get into the picture which now starts increasing the cost of two part or kalk addition but increasing the convenience for the aquarist.

Cost wise there are two factors that define the overall operational cost, the size of the system and the daily consumption

Although precise definition of costs is extremely difficult given the different products, sources equipment and peripherals designs and their costs below there is a chart that shows the approximate average annual cost for different supplementation methods for a 55 gallon system. Again the break even points between the methods can swing significantly depending on specific media and equipment sources and the "fanciness" of the set ups.
cost55.gif

Note that the least costly option will be to get some Ms Wages Kalk and drip a kalk mix using a basically zero cost plastic jug and an air hose (Green line). At about a consumption of 2 dKh per day the required evaporation (around 1.75% of tank volume) may start limiting the amount of supplementation that can be added. so in that case changing to the next less costly alternative, the manual addition of a DIY supplement, will be required (blue line).
Automating the addition of two part (Orange line) will increase it cost but not as high as what the cost would be by automating the lime addition using a Kalk reactor (Purple line). Note that Kalk could be automated without the use of a reactor (line not shown), the cost of this automation will be very similar if not cheaper than the automation of a two part dosing system so if not using a Kalk reactor, automating Kalk addition will be cheaper than automating two part addition.
In either of the Kalk cases at about 2 dKh of consumption another supplementation method shall be considered, in this case the automation of the two part addition.
Finally in this case cost wise a calcium reactor will be the most expensive alternative and if elected might be for the added convenience and why not a bit for the love of aquarium toys
So for a 55 gal system potentially dripping Kalk, manual addition or automating a DIY are good alternatives
Now if we increase the size of the system to say 120 gallons the comparison may look a bit different.
cost1202.gif

For a system this size automation is almost granted so no comparison is made with dripping Kalk or manual DIY additions but rather comparing automated Kalk reservoir, automated DIY two part, automated Kalk reactor and automated calcium reactor.
First thing to notice that a Randy style Kalk reservoir with a doser pump and top off will be the lowest cost alternative up to the level were evaporation does not allow for higher addition.
If there is no room for a Kalk reservoir the automating two part solution is the alternative but note that it become more expensive than a Kalk reactor at a consumption of only 0.9 dKh which is an unusually low consumption so in this case a Kalk reactor seems to be the logical alternative.
Finally if this is a heavy loaded system and the consumption exceed 2 dKh per day the alternative will be the calcium reactor.
So for a system this size with light to medium consumption automation of a Kalk reservoir or a Kalk reactor will be the alternative and for a heavy loaded system a properly sized calcium reactor is granted and will not be a luxury.


Calculating your cost

I see some posts trying to compare costs, for a proper comparison the initial setup cost shall be tied with the on going operational cost and media consumption.
I will suggest the following to approximate a cost comparison:

a) Determine your setup cost (do not forget to add shipping and handling)
b) Assuming your setup shall last at least five years determine the annual cost dividing a above by five
c) determine your alkalinity consumption
d) Use the chart below as a guideline to determine the annual ongoing cost of your supplementation system. (Calcium reactor include CO2 and Power). As the chart is for 120 gal. Divide the number by 120 and multiply it by the volume of your system.
e) Add the ongoing annual cost to the initial setup cost and compare.
f) Add to the equation whatever your feelings are regarding convenience, risk and such and make your move and enjoy your new toys!

mediacost.gif
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344362#post10344362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
Yeah, I agree. The ugly little secret that's not reared its head in all the dialog, is that we've been comparing a DIY strategy with all its idiosyncrasies to a name-brand off the shelf reactor system at list price.

It's a little disingenuous to not compare apples with apples, and factor the difference in cost between the 2 part dosing systems that are, by nature, a DIY solution, and a DIY reactor setup, or one that's a branded off-the-shelf used model. I alluded to this before, but it seems that nobody picked up on it. However, I really didn't expect the stalwart 2part guys to validate my point.

I bought my Korallin reactor setup, with the CO2 bottle 1/3 full, for $340. I feed it off my skimmer pump, so that avoids the expense of an additional pump. I don't need a pH probe to run the thing, because if you get some decent advice (I was helped by dragon_slayer), it's a no-brainer to set up.

Throw in $20 in media, I was running for $360, and the tank has never looked better. For those who are doing the math, that's only a $100 or so delta between a super CaRx and a rudimentary automated 2 part system that I'd need a shoe horn to fit under my tank stand and wind up pulling my hair out over, in the process.

As I said before... Ya' pays yer money, ya' takes yer choice. One size does NOT fit all.

You are a big fan of apples and oranges huh? :lol:

The reason DIY 2-part is being compared to name brand, commercial reactors is because it's just as easy to put together a DIY 2-part doser as it is a commercial, boxed up 2-part dosing system. DIY reactors are IMO in a completely different league of DIY. I wouldn't even know where to start... and I'd imagine by the time I was finished the costs for all the material & labor would come close to a commercial reactor. So IMO it's not apples to oranges at all, it's apples to apples to apples to apples to apples.... :rollface:

And in case you didn't notice, the math can be manipulated to show a valid estimate of any amount, for either system...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344362#post10344362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sirreal63
Maybe I am just too stupid to use the two part or too frugal, either way I will never go back to the dosing nightmare. To each his own and if it works for you keep doing it.

Is there really any need to get personal? :( I don't think I would go as far to call anyone here stupid...

The bottom line is, and it was already said, but in case it was missed:


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10344362#post10344362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snarkys
I personally think both methods are great and as far as actual growth/health goes in your tank, there will be little to no difference between the two. In this hobby we often get caught up in the "what is best debate" but the reality is the best and the next best are often indistinguishable as far as real life results are concerned. To decide whats best you need to decide based on other things like ..
 
I think most people have already said do what works best for you, no one is pointing a gun here.

David...it was a joke, I am more than capable of using a two part system as is anyone and anyone is capable of using a calcium reactor. In my experience the reactor was easier, your mileage may vary.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10346101#post10346101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sirreal63
I think most people have already said do what works best for you, no one is pointing a gun here.

David...it was a joke, I am more than capable of using a two part system as is anyone and anyone is capable of using a calcium reactor. In my experience the reactor was easier, your mileage may vary.

Oh! :lol: I misinterpreted that big time!!! I sowwy!!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10345770#post10345770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davidryder
You are a big fan of apples and oranges huh? :lol:

The reason DIY 2-part is being compared to name brand, commercial reactors is because it's just as easy to put together a DIY 2-part doser as it is a commercial, boxed up 2-part dosing system. DIY reactors are IMO in a completely different league of DIY. I wouldn't even know where to start... and I'd imagine by the time I was finished the costs for all the material & labor would come close to a commercial reactor. So IMO it's not apples to oranges at all, it's apples to apples to apples to apples to apples.... :rollface:

And in case you didn't notice, the math can be manipulated to show a valid estimate of any amount, for either system...
I'd say I'm not the one who has the gift for disparate fruit comparisons. Protest as you may, but sophomoric rhetorical techniques don't change the fact that DIY is DIY, and your self-confessed inability to fathom a way to make your own reactor from any number of plans that are available doesn't change the reality that it's successfully done all the time. Since we're on fruit analogies, I'd file your reply under 'sour grapes'. :lol:

As to your protest that math can be 'manipulated', in case you didn't notice, the only thing that's being manipulated here is the truth. For the rest of us, a jaunt over to the hardware Buy/Sell forum will tell you that my numbers are spot-on.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10346529#post10346529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
I'd say I'm not the one who has the gift for disparate fruit comparisons. Protest as you may, but sophomoric rhetorical techniques don't change the fact that DIY is DIY, and your self-confessed inability to fathom a way to make your own reactor from any number of plans that are available doesn't change the reality that it's successfully done all the time. Since we're on fruit analogies, I'd file your reply under 'sour grapes'. :lol:

As to your protest that math can be 'manipulated', in case you didn't notice, the only thing that's being manipulated here is the truth. For the rest of us, a jaunt over to the hardware Buy/Sell forum will tell you that my numbers are spot-on.

Well, from the beginning of this thread you have advocated Ca Rx as the best method under the decoy of "Let's find the best method". Several have stated that either method works seemingly fine and it also seems that everyone has different figures either showing that Ca Rx is cheaper or 2-part is cheaper. I don't really see what makes your figures so magical.

I'm not an advocate of either - there have been several replies from users of both methods that have indicated that they are perfectly happy with what they have. If I have to choose between the two methods in the future and have the money, I will probably get a fairly nice Ca Rx. If I don't have the money to spend, I'll get a cheap DIY 2-part. I would feel comfortable buying a used Ca Rx but I wouldn't want to build one myself or buy a cheap one just to save money. Besides, resale value of dosing pumps is pretty high so there wouldn't be much loss involved in switching over later.

And if you are really trying to debate the fact that a DIY 2-part is both <b>cheaper</b> and <b>easier</b> than a DIY Ca Rx then I don't really know what to say... DIY isn't DIY when you compare the ease and cost of a DIY 2-part and the ease and cost of a DIY Ca Rx. It takes literally 10 minutes and intuitive knowledge to throw together a 2-part dosing system. That simply cannot be said about a Ca Rx. And somebody mentioned it before, but where you get the chemicals from, the pool (grocery) store or pet store, doesn't make it DIY.

It's a matter of what people want, not which is better or cheaper. And who's to say that the numbers you produced in your setup is the setup everyone wants? Or even more realistically, what people actually setup? And the same goes with 2-part systems.

Don't take it so personal - and try not to get so caught up on what is better. Snarkys reply below says it all - it's just preference. This thread, if nothing else, has proved that it really comes down to preference & budget.
 
I think tank size is the deciding factor. Smaller tanks, under 60 gallons, a 2 part mix is simple, works and very economic.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10347088#post10347088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davidryder
This thread, if nothing else, has proved that it really comes down to preference & budget.

And tank size. :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10347535#post10347535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
And tank size. :D

I think I would agree with that!

How did you make those charts? Great job, again! :p
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10347088#post10347088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davidryder
Well, from the beginning of this thread you have advocated Ca Rx as the best method under the decoy of "Let's find the best method"... yadda, yadda... I don't really see what makes your figures so magical.
Ah, to be a college student again, and know everything. And already the budding psychologist, too!

To set the record straight, the figures aren't mine. Unless you want to intentionally ignore jdieck's charts which he reposted again on page 10.

Anyway, I'm out of this one. I wouldn't presume to argue with an expert.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10347708#post10347708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davidryder
I think I would agree with that!

How did you make those charts? Great job, again! :p

I developed a model in Excel to calculate the costs.
The range of cost is so wide, that is why I added the second part so each one can calculate their own, and I mean the difference is not only between DIY Two part and a Reactor but within reactor systems themselves and even within DIY sourcing costs. Once you have your equipment estimates based on your preferences then just add the consumables portion. I bet it will be different for everyone and for every system.
 
Any way I could get a copy of that Excel file? I'd like to make the point to my friend that a CaRx is not the ideal solution for her tank, and it'd be easier for her to twaddle with the numbers on her own, so she can see it for herself.
 
i know nothing so i go by what i see the pros r doing.
75% of the pros with nice sps dominate reefs switched from ca reactors to dose 2 parts.
reason: 70% low ph in the am.
20% too much equipment to hook up (ex. kalk reactor).
10% trying to reduce space.

0% switch back to ca reactor

the # speaks for themselves
for those that have switched back to ca reactor, pls post here and let me have it. :smokin:
 
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