calcium
- Thread starter aznnutty
- Start date
USAquatics
Member
Sorry double post
USAquatics
Member
I am surprised that this topic doesn't come up more often. For many years people have been trying to save money by using off of the shelf items as replacemnts for hobby branded products. I personally feel that this has potential for great harm to the tank.
1st, products made for the hobby by Kent, ESV, etc. are bought from high purity suppliers for the hobby. When these products are mined etc, they are not pure enough (in most cases) for long term sustainable use. Kent, etc buys laboratory grade products that are tested in house prior to being packaged. When using Mrs Wages, Dow Flake, Mag Flake etc, the manufacturer has no intent on these going into your glass box. Nor do they have a responsibility to maintaining a consistant product. If they change mines, hit a lime vain that is higher that normal in copper or phosphates, it could be fine for it's intented use, but reek havoc in your tank. I am all for saving a buck. I also hate getting dinged by any reatiler or manufacturer, but I'd hate to have to look into mirror one day and own up to taking a short sited short cut. In a hobby where parts per million are measured, I'll pay the extra for the peice of mind. Just my .02.
1st, products made for the hobby by Kent, ESV, etc. are bought from high purity suppliers for the hobby. When these products are mined etc, they are not pure enough (in most cases) for long term sustainable use. Kent, etc buys laboratory grade products that are tested in house prior to being packaged. When using Mrs Wages, Dow Flake, Mag Flake etc, the manufacturer has no intent on these going into your glass box. Nor do they have a responsibility to maintaining a consistant product. If they change mines, hit a lime vain that is higher that normal in copper or phosphates, it could be fine for it's intented use, but reek havoc in your tank. I am all for saving a buck. I also hate getting dinged by any reatiler or manufacturer, but I'd hate to have to look into mirror one day and own up to taking a short sited short cut. In a hobby where parts per million are measured, I'll pay the extra for the peice of mind. Just my .02.
DiscoReefRover
Active member
loke I said earkier I use Esv 2 part runs me 40 dollars every 6 weeks IMO thats getting off cheap in this hobby What everyone needs to remember cheap and reef hobby Are like oil and water doesnt work well together
Sean OUT!....lol
Sean OUT!....lol
funkyman
New member
If there's a way I can save money in this hobby, by jingoes I'm gonna to do it. Especially when a chemist advises I can make a gallon set of 2-part for less than 25 cents, as opposed to $35 in a store for the exact same thing.
I don't have a problem shelling out the bucks for legitimate products in this hobby, but that doesn't mean I have to be a sucker for everything sitting on retail shelf.
I don't have a problem shelling out the bucks for legitimate products in this hobby, but that doesn't mean I have to be a sucker for everything sitting on retail shelf.
DiscoReefRover
Active member
dont get me wrong Im not sating everything has to be name brand but IMO I myself Know without dought that what im subjecting my animals which depend completely on me to care for them as best as I can Im not gonna experiment on them with something that has possible doughts to save a few bucks ....case in point is Dows flake has changed there formula now and acording to experts including randy himself says oh well I guess everyones gonna have to go get some B-Ionic due to increased bromine levels in there new formula ....sorry for the incredible running on sentance but i build cars I dont write books Screw English class!
sean....LOL
sean....LOL
USAquatics
Member
There is a big misconception in the hobby that all "two part" systems are alike. The B-Ionic "The Original" and Kent Tech Cb A & B are more than just a calcium and buffer. They're two part systems include calcium, strontium, magnesium, iron, iodine etc. A simple calcium and buffer (especially bought off of the farm & fleet store) contain at best calcium and buffer. At worst, copper, phosphate, nitrates, and a host of other things that we don't test for in this hobby.
funkyman
New member
I do research before trying anything on a supplemental basis. The Dowflake I have is almost two years old, and was produced way before any formula changes (which I was also aware of).
If I can't believe information / advice from Randy H. Farley, then I may as well not listen to anyone.
If I can't believe information / advice from Randy H. Farley, then I may as well not listen to anyone.
fambrough
Member
FWIW, we still don't have the real dope about the long term effect of Bromine levels in reef aquariums. I followed those threads in the chemistry forum, too, as I have been making my own two-part for a while now. Randy writes that the new DOW is safe to use for adjustments. His concerns are for long term use. Elevated bromine concentrations can be mitigated somewhat by regular water changes. Essentially, we have a potential issue, without real, hard emperical data to suggest one way or another what the long term issues might be, if they exist at all. For some, this is enough to stop using the DOW products. I do not necessarily find myself in that camp. However, I did make a switch to order materials from Bulk Reef Supply (for this and other reasons). I have read, but can not substantiate that their stock of calcium chloride is DOW manufactured before the formula adjustment. Also, I think it's fair to note that Randy writes again and again that all the "trace elements, etc." are supplied to our systems through regular water changes (and may also arrrive as impurities in the materials we use to control the chemisty).
Make of this what you will. I know there's a market for off the shelf, mixed additives and buffers, but I'm not one of the people driving that market.
Best of luck.
Make of this what you will. I know there's a market for off the shelf, mixed additives and buffers, but I'm not one of the people driving that market.
Best of luck.
USAquatics
Member
quote:
"The Dowflake I have is almost two years old, and was produced way before any formula changes (which I was also aware of)."
That is precisely my point. Dow changed their formula. They do not have a responsibility to the hobby to maintain a formula that is beneficial to the inhabitants that are trusted to our care. How many bags of Dowflake were purchased and used prior to the hobby discovering the change?
My point is for about $20 of turbo calcium and super buffer, I have a guarantee that what goes into my tank is tested for use in an aquarium.
"The Dowflake I have is almost two years old, and was produced way before any formula changes (which I was also aware of)."
That is precisely my point. Dow changed their formula. They do not have a responsibility to the hobby to maintain a formula that is beneficial to the inhabitants that are trusted to our care. How many bags of Dowflake were purchased and used prior to the hobby discovering the change?
My point is for about $20 of turbo calcium and super buffer, I have a guarantee that what goes into my tank is tested for use in an aquarium.
Aadler
New member
I don't think anyone has said that using your own 2part is going to hurt your tank, it may very well be as good or better, but my opinion and that of at least a few others is the money for KNOWING what is going into your tank is insignificant enough to justify its use and any other point of view is just stupid. (ok that last part was just me ;c).)
serpentman
part time superhero
I say screw 2 part altogether and go with a calcium reactor.
Just kidding. I used to dose my own DIY 2-part. However, after my 180 crashed for reasons unknown, I have decide to take a considerably more conservative approach. However, I do use Mrs. Wages for kalk.
Just kidding. I used to dose my own DIY 2-part. However, after my 180 crashed for reasons unknown, I have decide to take a considerably more conservative approach. However, I do use Mrs. Wages for kalk.
serpentman
part time superhero
Actually, I run both a calcium reactor and kalk reactor. I have used the old Dowflake in the past. Now I use ESV every now and then when I have to tweak my levels.
Jeff Trout
New member
[chimp]
CleveYank
20 Years and Over
Also kicked the DIY 2 part
Also kicked the DIY 2 part
When I dosed ESV B-Ionic 2 part for 5 or 6 years I had no mysterious decline. ( I also only had 2 tanks)
Running 4 tanks and dosing B-Ionic was getting a tad pricey.
When I dosed the bulk DIY 2 part for 6 months I noted a decline. From what I could gather nothing else in my system had changed.
I kicked the 2 part and went to Kalk via makeup water and things are rocken as well as when I dosed ESV B-Ionic 2 part. So the exchange has proved well for my tanks. I use Wages when I can find it or the 4 lb ESV Calcium Hydroxide AKA Kalkwasser powder from Salty which is the most economical size vs cost for the ESV branded. But I bought 12 of the Wages at the Walmart in Bedford so I'm probably good for a while.
Also kicked the DIY 2 part
When I dosed ESV B-Ionic 2 part for 5 or 6 years I had no mysterious decline. ( I also only had 2 tanks)
Running 4 tanks and dosing B-Ionic was getting a tad pricey.
When I dosed the bulk DIY 2 part for 6 months I noted a decline. From what I could gather nothing else in my system had changed.
I kicked the 2 part and went to Kalk via makeup water and things are rocken as well as when I dosed ESV B-Ionic 2 part. So the exchange has proved well for my tanks. I use Wages when I can find it or the 4 lb ESV Calcium Hydroxide AKA Kalkwasser powder from Salty which is the most economical size vs cost for the ESV branded. But I bought 12 of the Wages at the Walmart in Bedford so I'm probably good for a while.
ok, i think i may have to go back to the books again but explain a lil bit of this to me. so besides dosing calcium, there's also kalk? i thought they were both of the same, so is kalk aka limewater? for a 75g tank with softies and lps, what is the best root for me to go, i no longer wish to work this out for myself. What is should i use that's the simplest way to keep my corals happy?
serpentman
part time superhero
Its a little more complicated than I can answer in a few lines. Basically Calcium is what it is. Alkalinity is a measure of how much acid is required to lower pH and convert all available bicarbonate to carbonic acid. Although calcium is required, without maintaining adequate alkalinity, pH drops and organisms cannot uptake it.
Here is a really good article that explains the relationship in pretty easy to understand terms. Although you still have calcium uptake in LPS and Softy systems, it is not near the extent of say, an SPS system. Therefore, 2 part in some form or another, should sufficiently keep pace without breaking the bank.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.php
Here is a really good article that explains the relationship in pretty easy to understand terms. Although you still have calcium uptake in LPS and Softy systems, it is not near the extent of say, an SPS system. Therefore, 2 part in some form or another, should sufficiently keep pace without breaking the bank.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.php
fambrough
Member
Brother reefer, truck on over to the chemistry forum and bone up a bit. You're really going to have to make that decision for yourself and your needs. The old adage "there's more than one way to skin a cat" is aptly applied to our hobby. There are mulitple reef keeping methodologies and a continuing evolution that we refine as fellow hobbyists experiment. Lots of people dose two-part, whether home-made or store bought. Others prefer to run a kalk reactor, which has it's own set of advantages and potential disadvatages.
The best place for you to start may be the reef chemistry articles.
Look here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605
Best of luck
The best place for you to start may be the reef chemistry articles.
Look here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605
Best of luck
Esquare
Active member
Serpent, now that I look at the volume of your tanks I can see why you use the Cal reactor.
nutty, The calcium hydroxide raises Cal, Alk and ph where the calcium chloride i believe just raise cal. Also, the Kalk (calcium hydroxide) won't bump you cal as much as the cal chlor. Added to this the relationship of cal, alk, ph and mag and how they affect each other gives you another facet of the issue. As previously mentioned, the chemistry forum is a world of help.
nutty, The calcium hydroxide raises Cal, Alk and ph where the calcium chloride i believe just raise cal. Also, the Kalk (calcium hydroxide) won't bump you cal as much as the cal chlor. Added to this the relationship of cal, alk, ph and mag and how they affect each other gives you another facet of the issue. As previously mentioned, the chemistry forum is a world of help.
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