Calling all Centropyge harem owners

[Nick_Northern]

Hi all,

I'm in the early planning stages of a 280G reef (96"x28" footprint) into which I will be adding a harem of dwarf angels and I'd like to gauge other peoples experiences keeping harems of dwarfs. I'll be adding plenty of rockwork in the form of seperate islands to create as much territory as possible.

I currently have a Biota coral beauty and a captive bred flame angel in seperate tanks (55 FOWLR/90Reef) and I will look to add more of whichever species is available captive bred in the UK at the time to form a harem in my upgrade tank.

Has anyone here succesfully kept a harem long term? If so would 3 or 5 fish be better and is there much attrition, do they gang up and eventually kill the weaker individuals as some species do?

Also do harems mix okay with individuals of other dwarf angel species, if I go for a harem of flames I would also plan to keep my coral beauty and possibly add another species or 2 such as a cherub or Eibli.

Thanks in advance

Nick

 

[Pericyte]

I have 3 flame angels in a 300 gallon. They have been together close to a year now and are a hilarious mess to watch. I have no experience with mixing species, but I have seen many photos on reefcentral of mixed dwarf angel species. I would just make sure there is enough rock work to hide in if someone is being picked on (as you mentioned) and some other big fish to keep the dwarf angels in check.

 

[Pericyte]

The one caveat to this is QTed all three together, and there was one who was picked on. As soon as they were in the 300 they were fine. They all interact and chase each other, but I never see any damage or a clear dominant fish.

 

[Dmorty217]

Flame angels are easy to sex so it shouldn’t be a issue, you could run into a issue of a harem of other dwarfs if there is no way to tell male/female apart

 

[OrionN]

Agree with Dmorty217. Easy to sex Flame. However, if you add small Drarf angels, the dominate one turn male and the other will stay as females. No problem.
I have harem of 5 flame angels before with no problem. They spawned almost every night for years.

 

[Nick_Northern]

Thanks all, I'll be buying immature captive bred fish to add to my existing one so hopefully pairing will not be an issue with either species.

Have any of you kept a harem of one species alongside other species of dwarfs?

Also have any of you experienced dominant fish in a harem bullying & killing the lowest fish in the hierarchy?

I may instead try to pair both my coral beauty and flame and have 2 pairs in the same tank instead if that would work?

Thanks

Nick

 

[humaguy]

Thanks all, I'll be buying immature captive bred fish to add to my existing one so hopefully pairing will not be an issue with either species.

Have any of you kept a harem of one species alongside other species of dwarfs?

Also have any of you experienced dominant fish in a harem bullying & killing the lowest fish in the hierarchy?

I may instead try to pair both my coral beauty and flame and have 2 pairs in the same tank instead if that would work?

Thanks

Nick

Hi Nick,
Yeah, that can work in a big tank, just provide lots of nooks and crannies. In your qt have lots of pvc, if they fight, add some more. Feed heavily and keep the lights low, esp if you are not in front of the tank. I agree that Flames are easy to sex but will throw in the caveat that this is the case lol, only after a female transitions to male. If you are getting a few of the cb flames/cb/other you may get all females. The 6 cb Flames I have now were all females when I got them and there can be a lot chasing and tangling but nothing too severe. When I put in them in the dt they initially formed 2 groups of 3, this led to the males chasing each other.
After the males worked out their issues they now are a group of 6. They have spawned and did so along side a pair of jocs. There are also plenty of other angels in there. At one point I think I had 12 pairs/harems of different angels and overall, it was fine. The only reason I don't have them now is that a bunch were pulled when the gp went into the dt.

Best of luck and I look forward to pics.

TK

 

[kizanne]

humaguy

What is a gp?

 

[humaguy]

Genicanthus personatus

 

[Nick_Northern]

Hi Nick,
Yeah, that can work in a big tank, just provide lots of nooks and crannies. In your qt have lots of pvc, if they fight, add some more. Feed heavily and keep the lights low, esp if you are not in front of the tank. I agree that Flames are easy to sex but will throw in the caveat that this is the case lol, only after a female transitions to male. If you are getting a few of the cb flames/cb/other you may get all females. The 6 cb Flames I have now were all females when I got them and there can be a lot chasing and tangling but nothing too severe. When I put in them in the dt they initially formed 2 groups of 3, this led to the males chasing each other.
After the males worked out their issues they now are a group of 6. They have spawned and did so along side a pair of jocs. There are also plenty of other angels in there. At one point I think I had 12 pairs/harems of different angels and overall, it was fine. The only reason I don't have them now is that a bunch were pulled when the gp went into the dt.

Best of luck and I look forward to pics.

TK

Thanks for the info, 12 different pairs sounds amazing! How big is the tank you kept those in? Do you think there is a chance one of your male flames reverted back to female which could be why the aggresion between them stopped? I have read that fishers at least are able to do this but doesn't seem to be any info on in happening in other species.

There are still some Biota coral beauties available over here in the UK but they are from the same batch as mine so will be mature by now (imported in Dec 2016), i guess at this stage it would be luck of the draw if I got the opposite sex to my existing fish but I may take the risk when I'm closer to upgrade time.

 

[humaguy]

Thanks for the info, 12 different pairs sounds amazing! How big is the tank you kept those in? Do you think there is a chance one of your male flames reverted back to female which could be why the aggresion between them stopped? I have read that fishers at least are able to do this but doesn't seem to be any info on in happening in other species.

There are still some Biota coral beauties available over here in the UK but they are from the same batch as mine so will be mature by now (imported in Dec 2016), i guess at this stage it would be luck of the draw if I got the opposite sex to my existing fish but I may take the risk when I'm closer to upgrade time.

They all started together in the 125qt.
Mine were tiny so they were all female. In mature males the soft dorsal and anal fin are sharp edged. As they transition the anal fin sometimes goes sharp first while the soft dorsal is still rounded. They are female but you can see the start of male characteristics. During their transition this was they case so they just needed to, lol, work things out.

I would ask Biota to send them as small as possible. Ask them for all females, if that's what you want but it is pretty easy to sex them.

Here is a video from 15 months ago. They were still getting their color and bars.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MgCl9txPlEI?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Nick_Northern]

Those little bandits look awesome, I didn't even know they had been captive bred! Your flames look about the same size mine was when I got it, are yours bred by Syd Kraul at Pacific Planktonics too by any chance?

Unfortunately it seems we won't be getting any more Biota shipments to the UK any time soon so the only beauties available are those left at the wholesaler from the same batch as mine, so I guess its pot luck if I get a male or female at this stage.

Here's an admittedly fairly poor video of my captive bred flame, might not be due to the quality but is it possible to sex from this vid? (apologies for the awful music, my wife talked over the video so I had to cut the sound out!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQb-0Xvofnc

 

[humaguy]

Those little bandits look awesome, I didn't even know they had been captive bred! Your flames look about the same size mine was when I got it, are yours bred by Syd Kraul at Pacific Planktonics too by any chance?

Unfortunately it seems we won't be getting any more Biota shipments to the UK any time soon so the only beauties available are those left at the wholesaler from the same batch as mine, so I guess its pot luck if I get a male or female at this stage.

Here's an admittedly fairly poor video of my captive bred flame, might not be due to the quality but is it possible to sex from this vid? (apologies for the awful music, my wife talked over the video so I had to cut the sound out!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQb-0Xvofnc

yes, from Syd. They were one of the test shipments from Fall 2016. The Bandits are from Karen.

 

[OrionN]

Flame angels are easy to sex so it shouldn't be a issue, you could run into a issue of a harem of other dwarfs if there is no way to tell male/female apart

Many years ago in the 1990's, I had one each of Flame, Coral Beauty, Cherub and Flameback angels in my 420 gal tank. The Flame back was the male of the lot. The flame back and Cherub angel spawn often.
For Centopyge, they are all protogynous hermaphrodites, so just put small ones together and they will work it out themselves. Just make sure you have enough room and crooks and crannies for them. I did not remember the flame back spawned with the Flame or Coral Beauty

 

[OrionN]

Hi all,

I'm in the early planning stages of a 280G reef (96"x28" footprint) into which I will be adding a harem of dwarf angels and I'd like to gauge other peoples experiences keeping harems of dwarfs. I'll be adding plenty of rockwork in the form of seperate islands to create as much territory as possible.

I currently have a Biota coral beauty and a captive bred flame angel in seperate tanks (55 FOWLR/90Reef) and I will look to add more of whichever species is available captive bred in the UK at the time to form a harem in my upgrade tank.

Has anyone here succesfully kept a harem long term? If so would 3 or 5 fish be better and is there much attrition, do they gang up and eventually kill the weaker individuals as some species do?

Also do harems mix okay with individuals of other dwarf angel species, if I go for a harem of flames I would also plan to keep my coral beauty and possibly add another species or 2 such as a cherub or Eibli.

Thanks in advance

Nick

Happy Easter.
So Nick how did your harem do? Did you get Flame Angels?
FWIW, I don't have a harem with all the fish started together but added one at a time, started out at about the same time as you did. I had the two in my 65 gal office tank from when they are about 1 inch. Was spawning regularly in my office tank when I added them to my DT at about 1.5 inches. I do have picture of the two in bucket as I dripped them in but need to find it. It is hard to get good fish here in Corpus Christi. My harem are doing just great. I have 4 in my harem in a 320 DT. My Flame angels jousting never anywhere near as severe as the video above by humaguy. I think those two are more than just jousting but actually fight for dominance and trying to decided which is going to be male.
My Flame angels jousting are limited to the larger angel tank a short run at the smaller one, and the smaller one darts away, or two angels meet and the smaller one would alter her way to get out of the way. These jousting does not result in any injury. I have never seen my angels with ripped fin or missing scale. All are fat and healthy. They spawned regularly.

I hope you are enjoying your Centropyge angel harem as much as I am, what ever species it maybe. I also have two Indian Ocean Regal angels in the tank. The two Regal started out about the same size as the Flame, but the Flame outgrow them quickly. Just over the last few months, the Regal have catch up. The angels, Regal and male Flame also jousting sometime but nothing serious at all.