Calling paired mandarin owners...

[mkoop]

I have been keeping my boy for a bit over a year now and feel I have become quite familiar with the needs of keeping mandarins. I did not get a pair to start as while I thought I would be able to keep them, I was not certain as I had not kept one prior. When I reached the ~6 month mark with my current boy, I started searching for a mate for him. Unfortunately it had taken 6 months for me to find one that I am comfortable and more than 50/50 certain its a female. I'd say I'm about 90% certain as there is no way for me to truly know if a dorsal fin was accidentally broken or clipped in the process. It is a reputable shop I found her in and the owner who I have respect for is in the same 90% ballpark - mentioning the clipping or breaking possibility as his contingent as well.

That being said, she's a bit on the malnourished side, not good, not bad but I can see a ridge on the spine and definitely not what I would consider in good health by the standards I have kept my current guy... but I witnessed her hunting.

So I think I might take the chance and attempt to pair them, I wanted to ask those of you who keep paired mandarins. What should I be expecting here? The boy currently owns my 180 and he is the king, I'm not overly fearful of his health but am fearful of aggression from him. Just not really certain what I should expect and have read that the aggression (should it be male or the male not take to the female) can be very bad.
I'm not sure about using a sensitization box as I want her to get hunting and getting some weight on and I'm not sure how a day with no pod access would be for her.

I don't plan to QT her -- just straight to the DT (which frightens the hell out of me regardless of what I know about their slime coat).

I have been very successful in training my boy to eat pe mysis straight from my turkey baster, I have a low flow 40g pod propagation fuge and have alternative plans (see Paul B's feeder) should I have issues getting her to eat or eat enough.

Sorry for the long read... I have a lot of thoughts on this currently.

 

[snorvich]

I have been very successful in training my boy to eat pe mysis straight from my turkey baster, I have a low flow 40g pod propagation fuge and have alternative plans (see Paul B's feeder) should I have issues getting her to eat or eat enough.

You should have sufficient wild food without worrying about adding in supplied food. All mandarins pretty much eat mysis and all that I have seen will eat pellets if they can get some. I added a female to an established male, and while it was a bit tricky, it eventually worked out. (350 gallon well established tank with a 40 gallon separate refugium)

 

[davocean]

I agree w/ snorvich, your tank should sustain a pair w/out additional efforts.
I added a female to my male, and my female had been purchased through someone, and she was so extremely skinny I honestly thought it was hopeless, but I have a good pod supply and she overcame.
I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[mkoop]

She's in and already eating. Hungry girl.

I thought the initial meeting was going well, they were right next to one another. Looked happy as can be for about 5 minutes. Then it started with an occasional tail swap from him, that went on for a few minutes. Then he ignored her for awhile... Came back, nothing again.. Seemed fine, more tail swaps... Then he bit her, she swam slightly away. Awhile later another bite, then ignored. Now I am seeing him find a chase her a bit, she's meen able to get away for the most part and the persuits are short lived. Last one was just a tail swap and he left.

Lights are out and he's leaving her one now for the most part... Is this normal behavior when attempting to pair or do I have something to worry about? A bit afraid to head to bed at this point hah

I have a video of the tail swapping but I assume the fact he bit her overrides the need to see that

Now a tail bite and a side bite... I can tell she's trying to submit and he leaves her alone for a little bit then attacks for a little bit then leaves..

I got her moved over to the other side of the tank... atleast she's still eating pods, hopefully now that she's away from his sleeping area he will leave her alone atleast to settle a bit for the night...


Here hoping...

 

[davocean]

I would bet it mellows.
My much smaller female will kind of come at the male in what kind of looks like a bullyish way, but I'm pretty sure she is pushing for some mating action, or it seems that way, and they do the mating dance as the lights begin to fade, so I know they are cool even though she seems fussy at times.
It was probably a good time for you to intro, she gets to eat before bed, and they will be at peace for the night.
Hopefully tomorrow you will see better signs.

 

[mkoop]

Yeah I timed it out that way so she could hopefully eat a bit. She keeps seeking him out, but they are both sleeping now.

Here's hoping tomorrow brings better signs

 

[davocean]

As long as you have a male and female I really don't think it is that difficult to pair them.
The difficult part usually is being able to provide and sustain them, but I don't think you will have that issue in that system.

 

[Lostinthedark]

I had an established female in a 250 and tried to introduce a male. The female would bite him and not let go. I separated them and tried for over 3 weeks but I ended up returning the male. Depends on the individuals I guess.

 

[mkoop]

He wasn't really holding on as much as more short bites. He went to bed last night and she ate for awhile more in the opposite side of the tank and also went to sleep.

Hoping today shows some better signs

 

[Betta132]

They can bite and hold on? Man, they have those teensy mouths, you'd think they'd barely be able to peck.

 

[mkoop]

They can bite and hold on? Man, they have those teensy mouths, you'd think they'd barely be able to peck.

Man is it ever vicious looking aggression too... Thankfully things have calmed down but for a little while there I was very worried. I kept lights off until around 2pm today (about 3 hours later than my normal sunrise), she was and still is gorging herself.

We had a pretty bad looking tail bite late last night that got me pretty worried but signs as of lights on today are much better. The last interactions he swam up next to her, I thought he was going to bite her again and he ate a pod off the rock next to her and swam away. This has happened a few times and she is still seeking him out as opposed to running from him, when he was attacking last night she'd swim away but not too far. She has remained within a foot of him at all times so far since lights have been on. I snapped a few pictures as well, one depicts the tail bite damage that had me worried, though it is slightly exaggerated in the picture the way she has it bent. This should also serve as a good picture for sexing, considerations, confirming or denying her sex would be appreciated if anyone is so inclined to offer their opinion.

(You can see her spine line also, poor girl, gotta fatten her up.

Here is a link to a video (youtube) of the initial interactions between the two, before the biting (which has for the most part seemingly subsided for the time being) started, it also shows some of the "tail slapping" I was mentioning in other posts (if anyone can let me know the proper term or what is happening here to educate me I'd appreciate it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwl0VBz6E-Q&feature=youtu.be -- He was not very happy when this video was taken hah...


I feel I have a bit of a ride yet but things are looking okay so far...

 

[mkoop]

Yesterday seemed to bring some big steps forward. There was still a small amount of chasing, some tail fin biting. This seems to mostly occur right before bed, there is no aggression during feedings at all.

For the most part, it is pretty cute honestly, even though he occasionally attacks her, she will not let him get more than 6-10" away. She follows him around everywhere, I actually think despite the aggression it's helping her to acclimate to the tank. When I added him, he hid for the first week, she is out grazing and eating.

On occasion he swims up and she flashes displaying her dorsal and when this happens he usually just swims off and leaves her alone. But those first initial seconds if she doesn't display the dorsal it seems like he forgets the she is a she and chases her until she displays it, then the aggression usually subsides.

Truly interesting fish, I'm taking a ton of notes, pictures and videos in hopes that I will be able to provide some information to any other RC members who may wish to go through attempting to pair to an established male in the future.

 

[mkoop]

Chasing and biting have completely subsided at this point. I can definitely tell she is gaining more comfort in the tank but she still stays very near to him. She's putting some meat on those bones too, I can tell she is fattening up already. Haven't got her to take to the pe mysis yet but she's grazing on pods constantly.

I was very happy to do my "pre-work" inspection this morning to find them both sleeping in my boy's normal sleeping spot. They were within 1" of one another both had sand kicked up and were slimed over deep asleep. Tails curls toward one another.

I couldn't be happier, I feel this is a very good sign as around his sleeping area was where the hostility seemed to peak in the first few days.

I think clear skies ahead at this point. :dance:

Over the weekend I observed the tank roughly 10 hours a day, this includes while lights were on, pre and post lights.

A few misc observations:
While tail curling (non violent movement) seems to be a sign of submission or comfort (a positive sign), tail swatting seems to be a territorial sign or (negative) sign of aggression.
If a mandarin has an established sleeping rock it may show more signs of aggression closer to that area than away from it.
If you have your mandarin eating frozen, feeding during times when aggression is escalating or getting heavy can help deter the aggression.
I experienced short bursts or violent aggression, all of which were deterred by feeding. I did not experience the prolonged biting or holding on that some have described.
By day 2 (Sunday -- introduction was on day 0 night 1) aggression had for the most part subsided.

 

[HPark]

Thanks for the first hand observations. Very informative!

 

[MondoBongo]

glad to hear they are starting to get along better.

i always love hearing about people's success with these fish.

 

[davocean]

Cool to hear they are doing better, surprised there was that much rough play on working it out.

 

[OrionN]

I cannot believe my bad luck. I got a male in my 320 g tank. I add another that I though was female, and they start fighting, She turn out to be a he. Several months later his spike regrowth. I removed him to another system and added another who also turn out to be a male. Removing Mandarin out of a 320 is nest to impossible if I am not lucky. I caught the last male by catching him sleep out tin the open one night. So far no such luck with the current male.

 

[mkoop]

Thanks for the first hand observations. Very informative!

My pleasure!

glad to hear they are starting to get along better.

i always love hearing about people's success with these fish.

Thanks, they have most definitely become one of my favorite species. My wrasse are getting a bit jealous at all the extra feeding attention I'm giving the new girl trying to get her eating pe mysis, so far no luck. Still seeing her spine but her belly is no longer sunken and she has just been gorging herself since she got in the tank grazing every waking moment.

Cool to hear they are doing better, surprised there was that much rough play on working it out.

Yeah I wasn't really sure how it would play out, my boy paid no attention to my scooter blenny so I was hoping this would be mellow. Just glad it's done with now it seems.

I cannot believe my bad luck. I got a male in my 320 g tank. I add another that I though was female, and they start fighting, She turn out to be a he. Several months later his spike regrowth. I removed him to another system and added another who also turn out to be a male. Removing Mandarin out of a 320 is nest to impossible if I am not lucky. I caught the last male by catching him sleep out tin the open one night. So far no such luck with the current male.

:sad2:

That is some very bad luck friend. At least you had another system you could transfer him to when his spike regrew. I'm hoping I get no spike regrowth, but I do have a 40gB invert QT set up if she happens to be a he.
I think I first heard from Steve the possibility that some collectors actually clip the dorsal spike to sell them as female. Really sad.

 

[joshua.jebe]

a good read as i am in search of a female for my male as well. thanks for the info.

 

[OrionN]

Make sure the female is smaller than the male. When I tried to pair them in the past bigger females will beat up on smaller males