Can my protein skimmer be replaced by using pods, chaeto, mangroves and marinepure?

[RioReefr]

A few days I posted a thread about using chaeto/pods/mangroves/marinepure block in the 3rd compartment of my 32G all-in-one tank. LPS corals and 6 fish.

Since doing, I get noticeably less scum in my protein skimmer.

I was wondering, if I took the protein skimmer out of that 2nd compartment and just put in more chaeto/pods/mangroves/marinepure will that work as a replacement??

I've always hated my protein skimmer -- it is by far the most noisy/annoying piece of equipment in the tank. If I could get rid of it, I would just hear the relaxing sound of water dribbling through the overflow.
I know the protein skimmer also aerates and adds oxygen as well, but if I do what I am suggesting and just add an airline will that achieve the same end-result?

So, this is my AIO setup:

1st Compartment: Overflow into filter caddy: 200-micron sock, then 50-micron sheet, then 50g Purigen, then 50 GAC....water flows into...

2nd Compartment: Marine Pure block, chaeto, mangrove, pods...water flows into....

3rd Compartment: same as 2nd compartment...water flows into...

4th Compartment: Heater, 1/4" ATO tube, Temp probe, Return pump. The ATO returns kalkwasser solution mixed with vinegar.

BTW, I also have plenty of established live-rock in the DT and also a medium-size Triachna Clam (which I hear also cleans the water). My sandbed is live-sand Ooolithe, which started out at 1", but probably down to 1/2" now and is there mostly for aesthetics.

My main goal is keep my tank my water parameters very stable and to ultimately get coralline algae to grow.

Are there faults in my logic?

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Your theoretical approach is fine. None of us can give you a solid answer without knowing details in terms of nutrient imports and exports on your system, bioload, etc but unless you have something extreme going on the in the tank it's worth a try. Lots of smaller tanks are run without skimmers. Some big ones too. Keep an eye on parameters and be ready to up your water changes if things go poorly.

 

[Crooked Reef]

Protein skimmers are not necessary for any tank, they just make things easier. With that size of a tank you could easily remove the skimmer, especially if it is a stock one. Just monitor water quality and do more water changes.

I also wouldn’t add an airline. The bubbles hitting the top of the water and popping will cause more salt creep. A return line making the water ripple, along with the water moving through the back will provide more than enough surface agitation for oxygenation.

 

[ReefWreak]

Will it work as a replacement. No. Do you need the skimmer? No.

From the Reefkeeping magazine article on protein skimming: "Its basic purpose is to export dissolved and particulate organic matter from the aquarium, with the substantial side benefit of increased aeration."

If you look at your maintenance routine and equipment, I think that you're mostly covered by overlap from the carbon, marine pure, and clam for dissolved organic matter, filter pads and carbon for the particulate matter, however as you identified, you don't have a substitute for the aeration. Is it the end of the world? No. But I think long term, it might have an impact on general health, or at least provide stability, since it will keep the pH higher during the night when the tank is dark and not producing oxygen. That being said, the pH is probably pretty stable from the kalk too, so I can't quite say.

You have a very well thought out and put together system, so you may not notice a difference all things considered, but frankly, considering the effort you put into your tank with all of the existing maintenance and gadgets and filters and whatnot, I'm surprised that the skimmer bothers you. It's probably the lowest maintenance piece of equipment you have.

You could look into a different skimmer as well. The Tunze 9001 (in my experience) isnt' very good, but it does an okay job of skimming, but almost as importantly, it will at a minimum provide a lot of aeration, and I'm recommending you look into it because it is VERY quiet. I traded mine away because I didn't like the performance, and traded for an AquaMaxx WS-1, which was a BEAST in creating skimmate, however it was quite loud, and protruded from the top of my tank too.

Everything about your tank sounds very good, and you really are set up for success, but if I were you, I'd keep a skimmer around if you can tolerate it.

 

[RioReefr]

Will it work as a replacement. No. Do you need the skimmer? No.

....I'm surprised that the skimmer bothers you.

I work from home and my aquarium is in my living room. I love the sound of the trickling water, but the skimmer is a bit annoying. I can tolerate it, but if I could get rid of it that would make my life better. Sometimes at night, I lie on the sofa watching some TV and again the skimmer just bothers me.

As for bioload, it is 6 fish...and I feed the L.F.S. Marine Pellets 2x/day...food eaten in 1-minutes. And I throw in super small amount of Coral Frenzy 2x-3x a week. I give my Flame Hawkfish small pieces of frozen shrimp a few times a week. My CUC is 6 hermit crabs and 8 trochus snails (a bunch of little baby trochus too, but they only stay on the back wall). Oh yeah, I got a ton of spaghetti worms in the sand that seem to do a great job of controlling detritus that I almost never need to clean the SB.

Every Saturday, I do a 10-15% water change with RODI and Red Sea Salt mixed at 35ppt. It is just 32G tank, so I change out probably 3-5 gallons. I leave about 2-3 gallons in the ATO. I toss that out every week too and make a new batch 1tsp kalk with 1tsp vinegar per gallon. As for GAC, I sometimes change it out every week or at worse every other week. Filter socks/pads are replaced every other day. I don't see any change in the Purigen, so I only change that out maybe just once a month.

As for pH, the Red Plant LED over the Chaeto-comprartment goes "on" at 10pm and shuts off 8am. Then Prime HD goes on at 8am and stay on until 8pm with 4-hour ramp up/ramp down. pH always seems to stay around 8.3/8.4.

I am a bit obsessed with maintaining water clarity. It I see a slight spot of algae on the glass, I go over with a razor blade and take it off. If I see my damsel kick up some sand, I take pipette and remove that sand off whatever it landed on.

For Aeration:
My return pump returns the water into a 1/2" tube with 10 holes evenly spaced holes and that tube extend from the back to the front of the tank. It creates a ripple affect all across entire surfacee for agitation.

Addttionally, I have 2 Koralia wave-makers pointed at each other on opposite sides to get good circulation and flow.

 

[ReefWreak]

You might want to set your skimmer up on a timer so it only runs between midnight a 7AM or some other time period while you're not in the room. You'd still get almost all of the benefits without noticing any of the noise?

 

[mcgyvr]

The answer is yes
None of those replacement items are a must either..
All are optional...

 

[Dan_P]

Your sand and rocks are your main biofilter, the system that oxidizes ammonia to nitrite and nitrate, and in most cases denitrifies as well. Besides bacteria, there are also micro algae in your system that consume nitrogen compounds. Unless you heavily stock your system that's all you need to manage nitrogen accumulation.

Unfortunately, the removal of organics is a bit of terra incognita. We do know that GAC will adsorb yellow colored organics. I don't know whether water changes can totally replace GAC. Skimmers remove a class of organics and organic particles like dead and live bacteria and protozoa that is probably missed by GAC. Not using GAC and a skimmer results in the accumulation of organics. There's data on that. Does it matter? I have not seen any data to convince me that it does. Do I use a skimmer and GAC in my fish only system? You bet, but it's really a peace of mind thing. I want to reduce organics. Call it insurance. I also like the aeration a skimmer provides.

By the way, most skimmers are set to collect dry'ish foam. This isn't the best way to remove organics quickly from a tank. Wet skimming, collecting say 0.5-1% tank volume per day, collects multiples more organics and other stuff than the standard and recommended setting. In most cases I suspect skimmers are under performing anyway and shutting them off might just be a "œso what".

Hedge your bet. Shut off the skimmer for a month or two, AND don't add any additional aids to your sump. Let the tank appearance and look and behavior of your inhabitants guide your thinking and future direction.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Let the tank appearance and look and behavior of your inhabitants guide your thinking and future direction.

Best advice yet. Try it and let us know. If you don't like the result then adjust something (more GAC, higher light on the macro, etc.) or turn the skimmer back on.

 

[RioReefr]

Dry Skimming vs Wet Skimming

Dry Skimming vs Wet Skimming

Your sand and rocks are your main biofilter, the system that oxidizes ammonia to nitrite and nitrate, and in most cases denitrifies as well. Besides bacteria, there are also micro algae in your system that consume nitrogen compounds. Unless you heavily stock your system that's all you need to manage nitrogen accumulation.

Unfortunately, the removal of organics is a bit of terra incognita. We do know that GAC will adsorb yellow colored organics. I don't know whether water changes can totally replace GAC. Skimmers remove a class of organics and organic particles like dead and live bacteria and protozoa that is probably missed by GAC. Not using GAC and a skimmer results in the accumulation of organics. There's data on that. Does it matter? I have not seen any data to convince me that it does. Do I use a skimmer and GAC in my fish only system? You bet, but it's really a peace of mind thing. I want to reduce organics. Call it insurance. I also like the aeration a skimmer provides.

By the way, most skimmers are set to collect dry'ish foam. This isn't the best way to remove organics quickly from a tank. Wet skimming, collecting say 0.5-1% tank volume per day, collects multiples more organics and other stuff than the standard and recommended setting. In most cases I suspect skimmers are under performing anyway and shutting them off might just be a "œso what".

Hedge your bet. Shut off the skimmer for a month or two, AND don't add any additional aids to your sump. Let the tank appearance and look and behavior of your inhabitants guide your thinking and future direction.

I don't know if you following this thread, but I am always learning new things. When it comes to skimming...my LFS guy told me to empty the cup every 3-4 days and clean it out with running tap water. It basically bubbles up through the neck right to the top and barely trickles over the edges. When I clean the cup, I am basically cleaning the neck. Is this basically what you are referring to as "dry-skimming"?

Are you instead saying it is better to stick the cup further down so more water is flowing over the edges of the inside neck??
Is that more efficient or less efficient. I had assumed I would be throwing out more water and thus more saltwater (thus lowering the salinity). Tossing out roughly 1 liter of saltwater out of 32G tank every week seems like that would be detrimental.

So what is ideal skimming and frequency of emptying the cup w/o affecting the water chemistry??

 

[Dan_P]

I don't know if you following this thread, but I am always learning new things. When it comes to skimming...my LFS guy told me to empty the cup every 3-4 days and clean it out with running tap water. It basically bubbles up through the neck right to the top and barely trickles over the edges. When I clean the cup, I am basically cleaning the neck. Is this basically what you are referring to as "dry-skimming"?

Are you instead saying it is better to stick the cup further down so more water is flowing over the edges of the inside neck??
Is that more efficient or less efficient. I had assumed I would be throwing out more water and thus more saltwater (thus lowering the salinity). Tossing out roughly 1 liter of saltwater out of 32G tank every week seems like that would be detrimental.

So what is ideal skimming and frequency of emptying the cup w/o affecting the water chemistry??

Yes to your definition of dry skimming: barely collecting liquid and building up sludge on the skimmer surfaces. You are using skimmer time to concentrate organics instead of getting them out of the system quickly. The downside is that they might be accumulating in the tank faster than they are being removed by dry skimming. Of course, if the organics aren't being measured, there is no way to tell if the skimmer is doing all it can. And then there is always the question "œso what?" to organic levels.

Your concerns have merit. If your system is automatically replacing evaporated water, wet skimming poses a challenge of figuring out a way to replace the skimmate with new salt water and not fresh water. A wet skimming thread can be found in the Advances Topics forum.

For a 32 gallon system, wet skimming 1% tank volume per day is about 1 liter.

The science of protein skimming tells us that wet skimming removes material faster from a system then dry skimming. The price for this quicker removal rate is as you say, more tank water goes to waste. In my case I pay that price. Even if you wet skim, there still is the unanswerable question of whether organics are building up faster than they are removed by skimming wet, but at least you would be ahead of dry skimming.

If you are doing water changes, wet skimming would be better at reducing organics than just scooping out water. The Advanced Topics thread on this topic might be interesting.

Until we can measure organics and determine whether less or how much less is better, this discussion remains open.

 

[Crusinjimbo]

I have effectively run an overpopulated 13.5G AIO tank for 7 months without skimmer or continual mechanical filtration. I have an 8w red strip LED projecting into the center chamber, pump in the third chamber and heater in the first. Started with cheato in the grow chamber but had a difficult time containing it so I switched to hair algae on three walls because the cheato gets loose into the tank. I pull, using 12” medical tongs, about 50-70 grams of algae every two weeks. NO3/PO4 almost undetectable (Hanna URL/Red Sea).