Can you Overskim? Large skimmer or fuge?

[cthedaytrader]

I have smaller tank, but it is sps dominant. 20G Long with 15G.
Can you over skim the tank?

I have the sump divided with a small fuge section, for extra live rock and some macro.

I had the flow going Tunze nanoskimmer---return---fuge. I had the drain split into the fuge and the skimmer chamber, but I wasnt getting enough flow. Detris builds up, and macro was dieing in fuge side.

I am redisigning the sump and I was debating on whether or not I should upgrade to a large skimmer and cut out the fuge area. Would that work better? Other than having a reverse lighting scheme to keep Ph more stable, can the skimmer replace the fuge?

 

[schneijt]

If I could only have a skimmer or a fuge, I'd go for a skimmer (the larger the skimmer, the better, when in doubt). That said, though, both are very beneficial. A properly functioning refugium helps remove nutrients from the water and is a great place to grow pods and other beneficial organisms. I don't know the dimensions of your sump, but I'd try to make room for both a good sized skimmer (it's all relative to the size of your 20gal display tank, of course) AND a refugium. A small fuge is better than none at all.

-Joe

 

[schneijt]

Oh, and to answer your question, you can overskim a tank. However, it's not something most people would worry about. Get a quality skimmer that is rated a bit higher than your total water volume and you're fine. Overskimming is usually the result of people thinking their skimmer will work "better" if they buy a skimmer that's rated for something absurb like 10x their tank size... For your system, some good skimmers that come to my mind are the Euro-Reef RS80, Octopus NW110 (or 150 maybe), etc. I'm not familiar with the Tunze nanoskimmer, so I can't say anything about it and your system. I'm sure others are familiar with this skimmer and can comment on it.

-Joe

 

[cthedaytrader]

I do have a small volume, so I was thinkin gof a large skimmer, but maybe the octopus 160 extreme which is rated for a 160 g tank.

I would like to keep the fuge, but the macro keeps dieing off, and detrus builds up like crazy I have sand it Im thinking of taking it out. Its seems like Im just adding more nutirents to the tank.

I really couldnt fit a large in sump skimmer and decent fuge. When I change it I was going to go Skimmer, then fuge then return to increase flow and then i can take the ph which is feeding the fuge.

What happens ifyou use a large skimmer? Can I keep the nitrates down.

I also run phosban and carbon in reactors so that could be why my macro dies off.

 

[schneijt]

If you go for too large of a skimmer, there won't be enough organics in the water for the skimmer to produce an adequate foam head. The result will be little or no skimmate, or maybe just gunk on the walls of the collection cup neck. IMO, I think the 160 would be a bit much for your system. It's a beast of a skimmer for its size, but I would be worried about its ability to consistently produce foam since your water volume is so small. I'd ask in the MSX and/or Octo Extreme threads about what size tanks people are using 160's on. See if someone is using one on a tank as small as yours and see how it performs for them. At the very least, if you get the 160, be sure to feed well so that there is plenty for the skimmer to skim out of your system.

As far as your fuge, without seeing pictures it's hard to diagnose why you might be having trouble with the macro. What type of algae were/are you using? What is your lighting and how much flow (and is it spread out, etc...) is going in there? We can probably help remedy the macro problem in the fuge if we have some more info about the setup. FWIW, I don't think sand in the fuge is the problem, and the detritus could be dealt with by using filter socks or by siphoning the detritus out of the sump/fuge.

If you plan to give up on using a fuge, then definitely go for a larger skimmer and be sure to make a small skimmer section of your sump to make sure that you feed the skimmer as much "raw" water from the overflow as possible to maximize the skimmer's efficiency.

-Joe

 

[cabrego]

I have to disagree, I do not think it is possible to "overskim" a tank.

Worse case scenario, I suppose it would just take longer to produce a full cup of skimmate. The amount of organics created in the tank is independent of the skimmer skimming the tank.

 

[cthedaytrader]

I was trying to post a pic of my sump but I didnt realize my premium account lapsed on here, so I cant upload any pics tonight.

Bottom line is I have a 1 inch drain coming from the overflow into the first chamber where I keep my skimmer, and my ph that run my phosban reactos that contain carbon and phsoban run inline.

then through three baffles, then my return chamber which has a Mag 5 return, the final chamber is the fuge, which has three baffles the final one has teeth to preven macro from exiting the fuge.

WHen i first set it up it had sand live rock and chaeto, lit by a coralise mini compact with two daylight pcs. reverse lit on my lighting. The chate just slowly became brittle did not grow and broke apart and slowly disintegrates, I constantly get algea and red slime in the fuge, but none in my main dispaly tank

Originally the tank had a pipe off my drain supplying it, that didnt provide enough flwo so i added a MJ600 and mini jet to supplement it I still had the same problems, i took the chateo out finally and capped the drain line and hooked up a a mj 1200 which now pumps from the skimmer chamber to the fuge chamber.

I was planning to either switch the return and fuge chamber so it runs skimmer fuge and return to increase flow in the fuge and cut out the need for the MJ1200, or jus tincrease my skimmer chmabe make a small live rock chamber and geta big skimmer.

Any ideas of why my fuge just becoems a depository for junk?

 

[cthedaytrader]

god I hope that makes sense sorry for all the typos lol

 

[bergzy]

getting a properly sized skimmer made by a reputable manufacturer is your best bet for good skimming.

the euroreef rs 80 comes to mind as well if you can fit it in your sump.

a great hang on skimmer i have used on my 110g mixed is the bermuda archipelago which has been replaced with the rogue model. excellent skimmer i powered with a mag 3.

from my tinkering around...your fuge need not be large to be effective at growing macro for nutrient export. i use a 5g bucket on my 180g sps dom tank and a 2g bucket for my mixed 110g.

here is the 2g initally set up.

it receives 300gph flow which translates to a 150x turnover...thus, breaking the common myth that a fuge needs to be slow. pod production? lots. again, breaks the common belief that fuge flow should be slow.
Refugium tips

there is an article by borneman that mentions that 'yes, you can overskim':
overskimming

sizing a skimmer...

well, there has been a trend that has been going on for quite some time...i call it the tim taylor syndrome where if a 300g rated skimmer is good for my 150g tank...then a 1500g rated skimmer should be better. well, again, from my experience with way oversized skimmers...it is what schneijt has said...you will have a hard time forming foam in the neck to efficiently and effectively skim. taking a longer than normal to form skim mate is not always a good thing...it means that it stays in your water column all that much longer.

thus, skimming is a balancing act...and as calfo has said, it takes practice to get a good quality properly sized skimmer to work correctly ...can you imagine having a poorly designed oversized skimmer to work optimally? yikes.

btw: use www.photobucket.com to post pics...as big as you want!

 

[carlso63]

I agree with Bergzy... you are talking about maybe 25g actual total water volume to skim in your system. A skimmer rated for a 160g tank is capacity that IMO you will never actually use.

Much better to go with an "appropriately sized" skimmer (a little oversized to leave room for human errors like overfeeding) plus macro for export (and run carbon, and keep up with the occasional water changes too) then just a ridiculously oversized skimmer alone...

 

[jwd]

I would think the phosban reactor is outcompeting the macro....turn it off for a while a few weeks or so to see if that's the problem....

 

[cthedaytrader]

Part of the reason I was thinking about a larger skimmer was because the fuge was cauing more problems. Plus, I know in the future to a some what bigger tank, and any equipment I get now I would like to be high quality and equipment that can carry over into a large system.

when i first set up the fuge my tank was newer, and I wanst running phosban yet, I dont really want to turn off the phosban and run the risk of shocking my system, and if it is working, I wouldnt need macro correct? Just a better skimmer if even that.

THe fuge I have gets so much detris build up, red algae build up, that my dispaly never gets, so sometimes I feel like I am fightin ghte fuge which is doing more harm than good, which is why I need to either get rid of it or redisgn it. I don't mind if the skimmer is not needed, just if it will harm the tank, or really back fire and not be as effective. I would do both there just isnt room under my stand to put a larger in sump skimmer and a fuge.

Thanks for the help so far eveyone, I have to say this is my second fuge and both have not worked for me, I would appreciate more input as I decide what to do.

I should add, I have two false clowns, one six line wrasse, and a watchman goby. about 14 different zoos, and I think 35 or so sps frgas growing right now. I have no plans on adding more fish, some more zoos and a few more select sps, I also run a Geo Kalk reactor on the tank.

 

[buzzard one]

Like others have said, to large and it will not work properly.

 

[cthedaytrader]

I also have a close loop with a SCWD on an Eheim 1262, Mag 5 return, and the Eco MP20 pump, plus a korailn 1 in the back on random. So my main tank has decent flow.

The fuge right now is being suplied by a Maxijet 1200 pumping from the skimmer chamber to the fuge which was working better than the original drain design, but the impeller gets clogged up and id rather elimnate mechanic pumps that can fail if possible.

 

[bergzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13317843#post13317843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cthedaytrader
Part of the reason I was thinking about a larger skimmer was because the fuge was cauing more problems. Plus, I know in the future to a some what bigger tank, and any equipment I get now I would like to be high quality and equipment that can carry over into a large system.

I should add, I have two false clowns, one six line wrasse, and a watchman goby. about 14 different zoos, and I think 35 or so sps frgas growing right now. I have no plans on adding more fish, some more zoos and a few more select sps, I also run a Geo Kalk reactor on the tank.

will a slightly larger 'effective' skimmer be better? yeah. but i still wouldnt get a way oversized one. you are just going from one extreme to another. everyone i know always wants to UPGRADE to a larger tank...everyone and i know say that we should plan for the future as well. you will find it difficult, and most likely very frustrating, trying to find a skimmer that will effectively skim your 20g tank and then go to a larger tank...say a 125g. it is just going to be a 'rough' ride. small equipment was designed for a small tank. larger equipment was designed for a larger tank. the analogy here is that one wouldnt use a bit sander to sand down ones house to repaint...nor would one use a belt sander to polish miniature silver figurines.

as for the stocking levels of your tank...it is just my opinion that it is overstocked with fish in combination with your 35 sps frags!!!:eek1: :eek2: :eek1:

that is a lot of sps types. even my 180g doesnt have the 'variety' of frags that you have. then throw in the 14 different zoo's along with the fish population in a pretty small water volume...and yes, you are going to have a tough time keeping things stable.

the fuges i constructed in my early years that incorporated sand and rubble...ALWAYS turned into a stinky, icky and messy settling chamber/garbage dump. i have stopped using any sand and rubble in my fuges and just toss in chaeto. an improperly designed fuge can drive reefers nuts!!!

there is a lot of misinformation that pods will not grow in such a barren landscape with no sand and rubble for the pods to hide in...and any that do try and live there will be swept away due to my high flow...well, believing and thinking that something 'might' happen is very different than actually doing something and reviewing the results. thus, my high flow fuges with nothing but chaeto growing in there has resulted in rapid macro growth coupled with a very very large pod population that reside in the colony.

running a kalk reator in a 20g? wow, does your tank use that much ca/alk? what i do is take an alk reading before the lights come on and then another right when they go off. this gives me an indication if i need to supplement my tank constantly with kalkwasser. perhaps a two part system would be a more stable solution?

i estimate 4700 gph raw flow for your tank...of course, the actual number will be lower due to head pressure, scwd taking up juice etc...but even 4300 gph still translates to about 170x tank turnover! that is too much, imo.

and IF you have a rapid flow through your sump...say six to ten times or more...then your skimmer effectiveness and efficiency go way down. your skimmer just doesnt have enough time to grab onto the doc's it wants to remove...AND, with my experience with tunze skimmers...i 'think' they would prefer a slow rate of flow (tank turnover via the sump).

hopefully, this offers a little bit of insight.

 

[cthedaytrader]

Thanks for the links bergzy, I know I should sign up for photobucket lol but I never get around to it, it was always so easy to keep my reef pics here!!


To try and answer your other post lol its a big one lol

Part of the reason I know that I will be upgrading eventually, is because I have so many frags lol, and a lot are pretty decent, sps, like purple monster, pink lemonade, sunset, sunrise, superman, appleberry lol etc you can see i colect named ones lol. There are some more common ones I want to get rid of to add some more rare ones, but not right now. I also have been in the hobby for about 8 years and have alwyas kept smaller tanks, even before they had All in ones lol. When I say larger I would really like to build a rimless, open top starfire tank between 40-75 gallaons with a large sump and fuge. Right now I dont have the space and I rent so its not an option.

So thats why I wouldnt mind a a larger skimmer now, but of course I am thinking now I would want to try and overskim that tank too lol

As far as overstocking, most are small and if they need pruning I will (great way to fund the hobby lol) plus that is why i try and invest in the best equipment to keep up with the demands.

Fuge:
I think I have to agree about it becoming a junk heep, mines really cramped, and that might be my problem, whichbrings me back to my original question. Do i go skimmer with live rock in the sump, or fuge and smaller skimmer? I really never had luck with the fuges, but I have only built small in sump ones. I really dont want to give up the added live rock, just for macro, I feel that might be worse? Dont you think?

I debated and debated about the kalk reactor, and belive it or not it was a great decsion. Remember a kalk reactor only doses enough kalk to make up for top off, my tank doenst lose much so it has really kept my tank stable. I was dosing two part every day, ~30ml each part to keep my levels up, and that was a pain, I debated on a dosing pump or kalk reactor, and kalk has helped keep my PH up, and in 6 weeks my Ca stays between 440-450, and my alk between 7.7-8. I have only filed it with kalk once.

My paremter are actually very stable right now. The only thing that fluctuates is my nitrates, (I feed too much as well), another reason for skimmer, but fuge may help too lol.. If i change the water weekly my NO3 is between 2-5 if i wait it goes up to about 8. I also attribute this to the fact that I started using a filter sock (to fix another sump design flaw lol), and I really only change it when I do a water change.

As for flow, my corals love it, the eco is fantastic I keep it dialed back some and it makes a nice wave and has night mode. I started with my closed loop, (originally ran with a Mag 7) and the Mg 5 return it was enough, so I added the korlain 1 to one side and you could see how much better that side of the tank was doing, so i got a great deal on the vortec its first day out. I moved the koralin behind the rock work where i wasnt getting enough flow, and its controleled by my acjr just to come on randomly to keep some flow back there. I think these pumps are overated withou thte eco it really isnt that much flow, the eco on high is a bit too much but dialing it back works beautiul the fish love it, keeps detrius suspended.

Thank you everyone for the feedback, Id like to keep it coming as I decide what to do, Im in no rush really, but I did order some new acrylic to make the sump, so baffled placement will be my next decision.