Cannot Raise Alk/Cal (Long Post)

[scelona]

I have had never ending issues with raising my alkalinity and calcium. I recently replaced the rock and sand in my tank due to phosphate leeching and a few other issues. I had been getting significant calcium carbonate precipitation on my rock and sand bed so I was desperately hoping that I wouldn't have the same issues after the tank reboot. The new rock, BRS reef saver, and new sand have been in the tank for about 2 months and I have been trying to raise the alkalinity and calcium extremely slowly with no success. I have not yet noticed precipitation this time around.

Parameters as of this morning:
Magnesium: 1400 ppm (Red Sea, I elevated this to alleviate precipitation)
Alkalinity: 7 dkh (Red Sea/Salifert)
Calcium: 385 (2 new Red Sea Kits)
pH: 8.20 (Apex pH probe calibrated yesterday)
Nitrate: 4ppm (Red Sea)
Phosphate: 0 (Hanna Checker)

I am using BRS sodium bicarbonate solution to raise my alkalinity and calcium chloride solution for the calcium. I use BRS online calculator to determine how much to add. I have been attempting to raise the calcium by 20 ppm per day and the alkalinity by 0.7 dkh the next day. I never dose the two on the same day. I add 1/3 of the total solution every 6 hours or so. I add the solution into a high flow area of my display tank using a DIY dripper that has a rate of 1 drop/second. I test for alkalinity an hour after adding and it always jumps to the correct value but returns back to 7 dkh the next morning. The calcium additions follow a similar pattern.

I have only done a few additions and want to avoid dumping large quantities of these solutions in my tank as I am sure it will turn my sand into a rock again. I have a few very small corals: frogspawn, kenya tree, three kinds of zoas, pulsing xenia, couple mushrooms, branching GSP, and a devil's hand. My corals have all been fairly happy but I think the frogspawn tentacles could be a bit more inflated. The corals have been splitting and propagating over the past year but I think they could be a bit happier.

I am desperate for solutions but don't know what to do at this point. I read a lot of articles and it really doesn't seem like it should be this difficult. I get extremely frustrated anytime I read a post about a reefer's low alk of 9.5 dkh since I can't even maintain my goal of 8 for any period of time despite the extreme caution I have taken when dosing.

 

[power boat jim]

Why do you need an alk reading higher then 7 and calcium over 385? Those numbers are fine. How is you tank doing at those levels?

 

[scelona]

Why do you need an alk reading higher then 7 and calcium over 385? Those numbers are fine. How is you tank doing at those levels?

I have seen some things in my corals that indicate these values are low. While the couple of heads of my frogspawn look fairly happy, the skeletons have developed some very small holes over time and look weaker in general. Also a few of my corals have shown little to no growth over a 6 month period.

 

[power boat jim]

Those two numbers alone alk and cal. would not cause the problems described. There are plenty of tanks that run just fine at those levels. The fact you cant make them change indicates a problem maybe with a test kit or some other parameter. Try a search that states cant change alk or calcium levels and see what comes up. It may be a place to get a couple ideas.

 

[scelona]

Those two numbers alone alk and cal. would not cause the problems described. There are plenty of tanks that run just fine at those levels. The fact you cant make them change indicates a problem maybe with a test kit or some other parameter. Try a search that states cant change alk or calcium levels and see what comes up. It may be a place to get a couple ideas.

This is not some small issue that I am having and have never looked up. I have read countless articles, have tried a variety of methods suggested to me in the past, and have read essentially every post on reefers with the same issue. I have tried raising magnesium, lowering the pH, dosing more slowly, stopping dosing for a substantial period of time to slow abiotic precipitation. The test kits are not the issue, I have gotten the same numbers with a variety of kits as well as my LFS. I follow the instructions word for word and most of them are very fool proof. I have a reasonably strong understanding of ocean chemistry as I am a physical oceanographer as Scripps Institution of Oceanography. I am looking for help, not someone telling me to google something.

Can you tell me what things would cause a frogspawn's skeleton to weaken while its heads split and grow given my water parameters? I am not trying to be a jerk but your comment had zero substance. I know there are a lot more factors in a reef tank that contribute to coral happiness and growth but I figured getting the three main parameters to the "recommended" levels would be a good start.

 

[power boat jim]

Sorry didnt know what you tried before you posted or what your backgound was. I try to start simple and work up from there. I have nothing to offer you.

 

[scelona]

Sorry didnt know what you tried before you posted or what your backgound was. I try to start simple and work up from there. I have nothing to offer you.

I really do appreciate the effort and sorry if my frustration made my comment come out the wrong way.

 

[thegrun]

How much calcium and alkalinity does your tank use in a day. It's certainly possible if you have much coraline algae growing that all you are doing with your present dosing is keeping up with demand. You can safely increase your calcium 50ppm per day and alkalinity 1.4dKh per day, so I would increase your dosage and see it your levels start to rise. You are fine to dose both on the same day, but I would wait 10-15 minutes between the two additives.

 

[outssider]

1. first off, loosing (.7) dkh in 12 hours is about right for a reef tank, some tanks will loose much more than that.

2. going with bicarbonate rather than carbonate was a good move.

3. the way you're dripping it in is great, that should reduce precipitation.

what I have been using (for alkalinity) for the past several years is kent superbuffer. What I love about this stuff is I get no calcium build up on anything ever !! I don't need to clean my heater or pumps. I believe it must have something to do with the ingredients of the kent product (it states it contains borate salts in addition to carbonate and bicarbonate). I dose manually just like you (drip) 3 times a day for alkalinity and once for calcium. (i'm retired so I got nothing but time).

 

[scelona]

How much calcium and alkalinity does your tank use in a day. It's certainly possible if you have much coraline algae growing that all you are doing with your present dosing is keeping up with demand. You can safely increase your calcium 50ppm per day and alkalinity 1.4dKh per day, so I would increase your dosage and see it your levels start to rise. You are fine to dose both on the same day, but I would wait 10-15 minutes between the two additives.

I do not have a good estimate of tank consumption at this point but am hoping to get a better estimate as I continue dosing. I have very small bits of coralline on my frags but none/very little on the rocks or glass. I will try bumping the dosing up. I know I am being overly cautious with my dosing but I am worried about running into the same issues I had before which turned my sand into rock. Thanks for the reply.

 

[scelona]

1. first off, loosing (.7) dkh in 12 hours is about right for a reef tank, some tanks will loose much more than that.

2. going with bicarbonate rather than carbonate was a good move.

3. the way you're dripping it in is great, that should reduce precipitation.

what I have been using (for alkalinity) for the past several years is kent superbuffer. What I love about this stuff is I get no calcium build up on anything ever !! I don't need to clean my heater or pumps. I believe it must have something to do with the ingredients of the kent product (it states it contains borate salts in addition to carbonate and bicarbonate). I dose manually just like you (drip) 3 times a day for alkalinity and one for calcium. (i'm retired so I got nothing but time).

I was looking into that Kent buffer as it seemed like a lot of reefers have had success using it. I couldn't find a lot of information on the advantages of using this product over typical two part which made me hesitant but maybe I will give it a try if increasing my dosing doesn't help.

 

[bertoni]

The buffer products generally are a mix of sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, and some form of borate. The sodium carbonate increases the pH when added, so it's used for the higher-pH supplements. The borate can help a tiny bit with low pH problems, but it can't be used by corals for their skeletons, so it makes measuring carbonate alkalinity an problem.

I agree that 0.7 dKH is a tiny dose, and could be consumed easily in a day. My soft coral tanks went through 2-3 dKH per day for years due to coralline growth. I suspect you just need to dose more.

 

[outssider]

I couldn't find a lot of information on the advantages of using this product over typical two part which made me hesitant but maybe I will give it a try if increasing my dosing doesn't help.

The advantage is ......NO CALCIUM BUILD UP ON ANYTHING EVER.....

and no more turning sand to stone. It costs more....true, but if you hunt for sales and buy in bulk, that can help. I just replaced a jebao dc return pump because it died. It was in service for 2+ years without being cleaned. When I took it out to inspect the impeller there was no calcium build up on the shaft, absolutely completely devoid of calcium.

 

[bertoni]

If calcium buildup is an issue, baking soda should be fine as a supplement. It should be lower in pH than the Kent SuperBuffer dKH, which contains some carbonate, and so should cause less precipitation.

 

[scelona]

So I have upped my dosing a bit and I have some estimates for my tank consumption. I added enough sodium bicarbonate solution to raise my tank's alkalinity by 0.5 dkh this morning and it has now dropped 0.2 dkh below the initial value it tested at. So that means my tank is comsuming 0.7 dkh in 9 hours and somewhere around 1.87 dkh/day. Here are a few pictures of my tank, 40 breeder. I had to take these in a rush and the colors were very off but you get the idea:

Right side:


Left side:


Some corals hiding behind the rocks:


Does this consumption seem realistic for the corals I have? I have very little to no corraline algae.

 

[bertoni]

That seems like a fair amount to me, but I don't know how rapidly those corals are growing. I'd keep measuring every day for a few days, to get more data.

 

[scelona]

I definitely wouldn't call it quick growth, it has been pretty slow in my opinion. I will continue to make measurements but this is the exact same kind of thing I was seeing before the tank reboot. I can't figure out what I'm doing differently then other reefers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bertoni]

Okay, let us know how it goes. There might be some abiotic precipitation.

 

[scelona]

Last night I raised the alkalinity by 0.5 dKH and the value I measured 15 hours later was 0.1 dKH lower then before I dosed. This equates to 0.96 dKH/day. This is almost half of what I measured yesterday and is probably a much more reasonable number but I will continue making measurements for a few more days.

 

[Stevenrickard]

I've actually kind of been in the same boat for a little over a 3 weeks now... Been slowly bumping up my dosing every few days just to get ahead of the curve. I dose Kalk in my ATO and BRS 2 part manually at night. As of last night I seem to be making some headway... Was able to raise my dkh from 7.5 to 7.78. But it feels like I've been losing a never ending battle (chasing numbers). Tank looks great, corals are doing good... Only 1 SPS has polyp's retracted. But Monti's looks good Hammers look good. Colors are popping... As much as I'd like to have that 8.5-9 number I had a few months ago, I have to just keep slowly working at getting back to it. Everything i'm stating isn't helpful to you, I'm aware of that and I'm sorry. But I can relate to it and want to follow this thread and see what happens. Best of luck, if any cool ideas are thrown out there I'm looking to read and try...

My current parameters: SG 1.026, CAL 552 (not sure what caused this spike), Alk 7.78, Mag 1350, Phos 0.1, Nitrate 0.