Can't Dial in Gate Valve on Drain - Herbie Method

[AUFishGuy]

So for the last week i have been trying to adjust the gate valve on my drain to match the return pump to no avail. It is always just slightly off. Even more troubling is it doesnt seem to be consistent. Example: last night i thought i had it dialed in. I wake up this morning and the level in the sump has only dropped a little ( maybe a few centimeters). so I thought it may be evaporation so i add some freshwater back in as i am still setting up my ATO. I come back after getting ready for work, maybe 40 min, and it is back down to the place that i originally saw it at this morning. I am baffled. Any ideas?

90 gallon Dt with a 29 gallon sump

 

[oldbones]

Do you have it high enough so there's a tiny trickle of water going down your second drain?

 

[AUFishGuy]

Do you have it high enough so there's a tiny trickle of water going down your second drain?

No i keep it right under the second drain, should it be that high, I felt like that would give me the same problem just in the opposite direction of my example.

When it is slightly off it is also hard to figure out due to evaporation

 

[oldbones]

Hmm, I built a Herbie system, and I throttle the main drain until the water JUST barely trickles into the emergency (second) drain. Then water level remains constant in the overflow box, and only fluctuates in the return chamber in my sump. So, the ATO goes in that return chamber, and everything stays stable.

I do have to tweak it maybe once a week as the system matures, when I clean a return pump or something like that.

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

I've been playing with mine for over a year.
NEVER stays where I put it.
I also run without any water in the emergency pipe.
Some say it has to do with barometric pressure.

 

[oldbones]

All guidance I've read indicates the design intent of the Herbie drain system is such that you adjust for a minute trickle down the second drain. This flow will fluctuate a little, but the level in your overflow will not.

 

[xmas_one]

It is going to fluctuate no matter what, that is why you need to keep a trickle going down the emergency drain. If you don't have a trickle going down the emergency drain, you are doing it wrong.

 

[AUFishGuy]

SO the Trickle down the emergency drain will solve this issue completely?

 

[oldbones]

It sure should. Mine took a couple days to get dialed, but it's pretty much set and forget now. The trickle was noisy at first, but quieted down once a little slime coat grew in the drain.

 

[BlackTip]

Think about it this way. The return water volume is never consistent. It fluctuates slightly. You would want the emergency pipe to handle this fluctuation. To simplify this, for example, if your pump is returning 500gph. You would want the main siphon to handle maybe 490gph and the E pipe to handle 10gph. What happens when the return volume decrease let's say to 495gph, if your system in configured correctly, the siphon pipe should handle 490gph and the E pipe 5gph. The same goes when the return volume increases. The E pipe handle the fluctuation.

 

[AUFishGuy]

Think about it this way. The return water volume is never consistent. It fluctuates slightly. You would want the emergency pipe to handle this fluctuation. To simplify this, for example, if your pump is returning 500gph. You would want the main siphon to handle maybe 490gph and the E pipe to handle 10gph. What happens when the return volume decrease let's say to 495gph, if your system in configured correctly, the siphon pipe should handle 490gph and the E pipe 5gph. The same goes when the return volume increases. The E pipe handle the fluctuation.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that makes sense. I originally cut my e Pipe a good bit higher than my preferred water level so i will need to cut that again. Looking further it looks like i also made the mistake of making my bigger bulkhead(1") the main drain and the 3/4" bulkhead the E drain. I now know i have this backwards but i think it may be ok. My main drain is cut back pretty heavily and i designed my sump well so that if the drain were to stop returning water the return pump has only a small amount that can be returned to the DT. IS this going to be ok?

 

[BlackTip]

Your siphon pipe need to be at least 6" below water line. This prevent air from being sucked from water surface. If it is too low close to the bottom of the overflow box, make sure that you have enough space in your sump, because most of the water in the overflow box will be flushed to the sump when the return pumps are shut off.

The E pipe should be as high as the wanted water level in the overflow box. You don't want it too low, because that will cause the water to splash in the overflow box. 1" or less. You want the E pipe to handle all of the water volume, if/when there is something wrong with the siphon pipe (plugged, maintenance, etc). So, it is a good idea to have the E pipe at least the same size as the siphon pipe. Bigger is better.

Beside the water volume in the return section of the sump, you also, need to pay attention to the water level in the tank. When the siphon pipe is clogged, the water level in the tank will rise rapidly before falling in the E pipe. You need to have enough distance between the water line in the tank and the edge of the tank, so the water will not be spilled over, before the E pipe handle the flow.

If you have two bulkheads, use the the larger one as E pipe and the smaller one as siphon.

It is difficult to get it right from the first time. Test, test, and test again. Adjust the length of the pipes as needed until you get it right. Once you get it right, you don't have to worry about it again.

 

[AUFishGuy]

Your siphon pipe need to be at least 6" below water line. This prevent air from being sucked from water surface. If it is too low close to the bottom of the overflow box, make sure that you have enough space in your sump, because most of the water in the overflow box will be flushed to the sump when the return pumps are shut off.

The E pipe should be as high as the wanted water level in the overflow box. You don't want it too low, because that will cause the water to splash in the overflow box. 1" or less. You want the E pipe to handle all of the water volume, if/when there is something wrong with the siphon pipe (plugged, maintenance, etc). So, it is a good idea to have the E pipe at least the same size as the siphon pipe. Bigger is better.

I just realized this but i believe i have the main drain(1") flowing at about 1/3 of its capabilities so now i am wondering if the E drain (3/4) wide open would flow as fast as the main drain does now throttled down. i guess the way to test this would just be to cut off the main drain and see if the E drain will flow fast enough. I guess i will try this when i get home and recut the E pipe

Beside the water volume in the return section of the sump, you also, need to pay attention to the water level in the tank. When the siphon pipe is clogged, the water level in the tank will rise rapidly before falling in the E pipe. You need to have enough distance between the water line in the tank and the edge of the tank, so the water will not be spilled over, before the E pipe handle the flow.


If you have two bulkheads, use the the larger one as E pipe and the smaller one as siphon.

It is difficult to get it right from the first time. Test, test, and test again. Adjust the length of the pipes as needed until you get it right. Once you get it right, you don't have to worry about it again.

Do you shut all of the pumps off when you feed? if so are you letting the overflow box drain completely or are you closing the valve on it?

Thanks again

 

[BlackTip]

Do you shut all of the pumps off when you feed? if so are you letting the overflow box drain completely or are you closing the valve on it?

Thanks again

I have BeanAnimal, which is Herbie with an addition E pipe.

Yes, the pumps and the skimmer should be shut down when feeding. The sump should be able the handle the extra water from back siphon and overflow box.

When the pumps are shut off, a back siphon happens and water will be sucked down from the return line until air is introduced. There are few ways to do this. The easiest one is to drill a hole in the return pipe just below the water surface. This will reduce the volume of water back siphoned.

The water volume from the top of your siphon pipe to the top of the over flow box will be flushed to the sump as well. Water from pipes as well. You need to measure the volume of water and make sure you have enough space in your sump.

 

[AUFishGuy]

I have BeanAnimal, which is Herbie with an addition E pipe.

Yes, the pumps and the skimmer should be shut down when feeding. The sump should be able the handle the extra water from back siphon and overflow box.

When the pumps are shut off, a back siphon happens and water will be sucked down from the return line until air is introduced. There are few ways to do this. The easiest one is to drill a hole in the return pipe just below the water surface. This will reduce the volume of water back siphoned.

The water volume from the top of your siphon pipe to the top of the over flow box will be flushed to the sump as well. Water from pipes as well. You need to measure the volume of water and make sure you have enough space in your sump.

Ok cool. I have already tested and my sump can handle both the full overflow and back syphon when the pumps go off. i just need to test and see if my E pipe can keep up with the return if the main were to become clogged. If not i guess i will just redo them , no biggie

 

[Johnseye]

I have BeanAnimal, which is Herbie with an addition E pipe.

Yes, the pumps and the skimmer should be shut down when feeding. The sump should be able the handle the extra water from back siphon and overflow box.

When the pumps are shut off, a back siphon happens and water will be sucked down from the return line until air is introduced. There are few ways to do this. The easiest one is to drill a hole in the return pipe just below the water surface. This will reduce the volume of water back siphoned.

The water volume from the top of your siphon pipe to the top of the over flow box will be flushed to the sump as well. Water from pipes as well. You need to measure the volume of water and make sure you have enough space in your sump.

I don't turn off my pumps when I feed. I find that it spreads the food out nicely and honestly my fish don't know the food is there when I have turned them off to feed. My fish usually eat the food faster than it would get pulled into the overflow, and in the case of Rods or other reef food the spread allows the corals to get it too.

 

[balz3352]

Interesting glad I saw this I'm about to set up a herbie on my 210 rr. I was reading and would never have set it up to trickle on the e drains