Can't keep up!!! Ca, Alk, Mg

[gbr]

Hello Randy (and anyone who wants to add), sorry for yet another Ca/Alk thread!!

I have recently noticed declining sps health. I measured all parameters and found Ca and Alk quite low. 350/6.4dKH The problem with that is that I have a rather large reactor running and am dripping Kalk constantly (1 ga/day via litermeter). So I measure Mg and found it at 1000ppm. I have since raised that to 1350 and hopefully that will help. Would Mg being that low cause me to not be able to keep up with Ca/Alk? What should the Ca and Alk reading be on the effluent reactor water (so I can test my reactor effectiveness/efficiency)?

I am going to be changing salt from IO and am wondering if you know of somewhere where there is a somewhat scientific comparison of the values of Ca/Alk/Mg in commercial salts. Specifically Tropic Marin and Reef Crystals. I have found individual references in threads but most don't have a scientific or even controlled approach (same water, sg etc.)

 

[Billybeau1]

There was a study but its about 6 years old. Don't know if any of the companies changed their formulas since then.

You could stay with IO and use Randy's 2-part to suppliment which is what I believe Randy does. Its a fine salt.

I do know that Reef Crystals is higher in calcium but a tad lower in Mag. Its made by IO and is a pretty good salt. I've never tried Tropic Marin.

 

[gbr]

Thanks. I did find this study but it is more technical than I need and many links are broken.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010303...om/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp

I believe animalnetwork is dead which doesn't help the links.
From the raw data, looks like Reef Crystals has the same Ca and lower Mg than IO but at a higher salinity.

I am so tired of the salt manufacuturers. This one is over the top in Ca and Mg but low in Alk...the next one is perfect on Ca and Alk but low in Mg etc etc etc. Do these people not know what the NSW levels are and what reef keepers need?

Randy's two part is a great solution but is a manual method. I drip Kalk and have a reactor. Maybe I should just be using part 3...Mg in my make up water.

 

[Billybeau1]

Well one of the problems is not all reefkeepers requirements are the same. One that has lots of corals and coraline require much more calcium than say me who has a fish only. One brand of salt may work for one reefer but not another. So I think different salts with different capabilities is a good thing. I can tell you I've personally measured the calcium in both IO and RC. IO is in the low to mid 300's and RC measures over 400. I do all my measuring at 1.023 @ 78 deg.

 

[steve the plumb]

I have used all of the salts you have mentioned.I am using I/O salt now.THe bucket is almost finished and I have a new bucket of reef crystals wich I have used in the past.I used to use the tropic marine brand but because my friend sells it at his company I was getting the salt at a cheaper price.I couldn't get boxes than 60 gal of salt from him.Plus the salt is more expensive than the other brands.I have heard than tropic marine pro is very good but it is one of the most expensive salt brands out there.I have had fine results with all those salt brands but I never test the salt I make up for water changes. I only test the salt in the tank.You can drip Randys formula to raise your levels but your ca reactor should be able to keep your ca and alk levels maintained.Maybe you might have to make some adjustments.I don't have a reactor I use randy's formula and drip kalk with auto top off unit.

 

[gbr]

Thanks again for the input. I would agree with you to a point on the one size fits all theory....but lets take IO for example, who also makes RC. Why do they have lower Mg in the RC brand? For a reef, you would want higher Mg, or at least NSW levels.

IO works fine for FO, but if you advertise a brand with the word Reef in it, then why would you intentionally make it with less Mg than your non-reef brand?

I just want the manufacturers to make a NSW salt...I don't want to have to make it for them by buffering with Alk, Ca or Mg.

If IO had 450Ca, 9dKH and 1300Mg at 1.026sg, that would work for both FO and Reef, true? As a matter of fact what marine environment would that not work in? Assuming you wanted to only maintain 1.023sg in a FO, that should still work but with lower levels of the main elements which the fish could care less about.

I am done ranting, I guess I am stuck for now with either IO or RC and bumping Ca or Mg respectively.

Billybeau1, did you measure Alk or Mg on either or both? Thanks for your input.

 

[DrBDC]

If you use Randy's formulas, and use IO, 1 cup of ca reciepe 2 and 1 3/4 mag mix will put you right about NSW levels when mixing in a 32 gallon brute can.

 

[Billybeau1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6731147#post6731147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gbr
I am done ranting, I guess I am stuck for now with either IO or RC and bumping Ca or Mg respectively.

Billybeau1, did you measure Alk or Mg on either or both? Thanks for your input.

Yes. Alk came in about 10 dkh for both. Mag on the IO was about 1190 and RC 1150. Again this was at 1.023. (I'm going by memory - my notes are at home.) So at 1.026 I would expect that to be higher.

I feel your frustration. I just bought a bucket of Coralife Salt and it tested 560 cal 11 dkh and 1300 mag at 1.023. The leaflet in the bucket said it would test at 450 cal at 1.023. I think they are a little off. They must not be too interested in selling their salt. I've sent them numerous emails inquiring about their high lithium content and they have not responded to me. Guess the little people dont deserve an answer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would Mg being that low cause me to not be able to keep up with Ca/Alk?

It might, but it might also just be coral/coralline demand, which would not be reduced, and might actually be increased by more magnesium. In any case, I'd raise it.

The reactor is totally maxed out? These may help max out the reactor:

A Guide to Using Calcium Reactors
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm

Calcium Reactor setup calculator (CaCO3/CO2 reactors)
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/reactor.html

I am done ranting, I guess I am stuck for now with either IO or RC and bumping Ca or Mg respectively.

I've always used IO, and have recently gone to bumping Mg++ and Ca++ in it with cheap MAG Flake and Dowflake.

 

[gbr]

Thanks Randy...don't have the Dow or Mag flake locally, but I guess it is time to order some...Although findin it over here on the forgotten coast will be about as easy as finding Southdown. From yesterday I have raised Mg by about 150ppm and my Alk and Ca are up now to the low end of what is considered an acceptable band. I should have been more watchful and not let Mg drop so much. I do have a very high Ca demand with ~45 SPS colonies and 3 Crocea and 3 Maxima clams, but I am sure I am not using the reactor to its fullest potential, I will read the articles tomorrow at work

Thanks DrBDC, I have about 10 buckets of IO left and really don't want to switch...I use 44 brutes but I think I can do that math on my own...god I would hope so anyway

 

[DrBDC]

Go to www.mississippilime.com and look at their distributor list. They have various chemical companies that distribute their product around the country. There you can get some lime etc., maybe everything at one place. See if they carry the Dow CaCl product mine does although I have so much Prestone Driveway heat I won't need to order from them for awhile.

On the mgcl, if you go to iclfertilizers(?) and then to the Dead Sea Works link and then contact page, send them an email and ask what company in your area carries their product because you would like to buy some. I did that and then Scotwood industries called me on the phone one morning. I was a little surprised. Then I was able to ask q's etc and found that all the mgcl that scotwood carries is from them.

Just takes some digging around.

 

[gbr]

DrBDC and Randy

I may be reading into the post a bit but let me ask, is the Prestone product a good alternative to get the CaCl? I do have access to that at the local Home Depot.

I recently bought a RoadRunner (Scotwood Ind.) product that maybe you could comment on as and alternative to either or both the flakes.

http://www.donson.net/page/DSI/CTGY/ICEMELT

It is the top product on that page that says it uses 10% CaCl2 and 5% MgCl2...but there is also other things in there too. From the MSDS:
Identity: Roadrunner Ice Melting Compound Contains a proprietary combination of Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Prestone Driveway Heat is a potentially suitable replacement for Dowflake and other forms of calcium chloride.


I would not use the Roadrunner combination product.

Here's the appropriate section from my article:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Substitutes for Dowflake Calcium Chloride



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Dowflake calcium chloride or a repackaged version (such as All-Clear) cannot be located, Peladow or Dow Mini-Pellets, which are dehydrated versions of Dowflake (that is, they have less water in the crystals), can be substituted. In addition to the Peladow brand name, Peladow also is sold as Prestone Driveway Heat and possibly as some other common brands. Kent Turbo Calcium is also suitable and is an anhydrous calcium chloride. Any FCC (food), USP (pharmaceutical) or BP (pharmaceutical) grades of calcium chloride should be suitable.

Peladow, Dow mini-Pellets, Prestone Driveway Heat, Kent Turbo Calcium and other dehydrated calcium chloride products are more potent than Dowflake. The dehydration makes them both more potent by weight, and more dense, so they are much more potent by volume. The problem is that it is rarely clear how much moisture they contain. Peladow specifies 90% calcium chloride minimum, but it may be higher in some cases. Dow Mini-Pellets say 94% minimum, but it actually has a lower bulk density than Peladow. The best guess for an amount to use is based on the hydration levels and bulk density provided by Dow for these products. Using these numbers, I suggest that aquarists use 20% less VOLUME of the dehydrated versions in the recipes than the Dowflake they call for. So a recipe calling for 5 cups of Dowflake would use 4 cups of Peladow, Prestone Driveway Heat, Kent Turbo Calcium, etc.

Choosing other unknown brands of any of the products may be fine, or not. I've not tested them for purity.

 

[gbr]

Thanks again Randy. I did read that in your article...sorry to waste your time. The search continues...I'll find something or just resort to good old epsom.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck.