Hi all. My problem in my reef tank is I can not successfully keep LPS or SPS. My tank is 150 gal. My fish are fat and healthy. (tangs, clowns, wrasse, cardinals and dragonet). I have 4 healthy rose anemones, smallest is 6" round, hosted by a mated pair of clowns that mate every 3 weeks. I have soft corals which are all healthy. (Green star polyps,ricordia mushrooms, zoas,palys, "pulsating" Xenia, gorgonians,clove corals) I recently removed due to fear of contamination healthy toadstool and finger leather and green nepothylia. For the last year or so I noticed a decline in any Lps I had. I recently lost fairly quickly a orange plate coral, 2 beautiful alveoporas and now I have 4 Flavia frags all receding. Not to mention every time I put a sps frag in it would bleach out within 3 weeks. Ok so now for my water params....Temp 78-82, Ph is 8.2, Alk is 11, calcium is 480, mag was a little low at 1200, nitrates at 20ppm and phosphates at .3. I run carbon and white pellet phos remover in a reactor placed in sump. I dose kalkwas and MG. I didn't think these numbers were that bad so like I previously said yesterday I removed all leathers thinking this is the cause for my problems. Today I see a bit more receding from the favias. I am not sure what is going on?? BTW I only change my water every 3 months. (40 gall) I would appreciate anyone's opinions. Sorry for the long post...:uhoh3::uhoh3:
Can't pinpoint the problem.....
- Thread starter Raffm22
- Start date
dkeller_nc
New member
I see several potential issues, though not necessarily definite issues. The first is "white phosphate remover". If it's what I'm thinking it is, that's likely an aluminum-based phosphate adsorption material. It's definitely not recommended for tanks with leather corals because of their extreme sensitivity to this compound, and many of us simply won't use it in any reef tank. Granular Ferric Oxide is generally far safer in this regard.
Overall, your water parameters look fine, though you may wish to consider how consistent they are, particularly the alkalinity.
With respect to the stony corals, the species you chose to try weren't the easiest to keep, by far. While Alveopora generally does far better than goniopora species, neither is an easy LPS to keep; they typically require very stable water parameters, frequent feedings and just the right light and flow levels to do well. Favia is generally easier to keep, but can still be quite hit and miss depending on the exact species and tank.
SPS is a whole different story. They are easily the most difficult of the photosynthetic corals to keep, and generally require perfectly stable water chemistry and ideal lighting and flow to do well.
If the water chemistry parameters that you list are indeed stable (maintained by 2 part dosing and frequent testing, for example), I'd next look at your lighting and flow. If you use LEDs, be aware that only the latest generation with significant sub 420nm spectrum seem to be adequate to keep delicate species, and even then, stony corals seem to do far, far better under T5HO or Metal Halides than even really good LED fixtures. Also keep in mind that even if you do have really good LED fixtures such as Kessils, Radion G3s, AI Hydra 52s, etc..., it's still easily possible to have them set high enough to fry the stuffing out of stony corals and still look dim to your eyes.
Finally, it's not uncommon for folks with a large population of soft corals such as leathers to have issues growing some of the more delicate stony coral species. This is typically attributed to coral allelopathy, wherein the soft corals emit chemical substances that inhibit the growth or outright kill neighboring stony corals. Some have been successful by running lots of GAC to absorb these compounds.
Overall, your water parameters look fine, though you may wish to consider how consistent they are, particularly the alkalinity.
With respect to the stony corals, the species you chose to try weren't the easiest to keep, by far. While Alveopora generally does far better than goniopora species, neither is an easy LPS to keep; they typically require very stable water parameters, frequent feedings and just the right light and flow levels to do well. Favia is generally easier to keep, but can still be quite hit and miss depending on the exact species and tank.
SPS is a whole different story. They are easily the most difficult of the photosynthetic corals to keep, and generally require perfectly stable water chemistry and ideal lighting and flow to do well.
If the water chemistry parameters that you list are indeed stable (maintained by 2 part dosing and frequent testing, for example), I'd next look at your lighting and flow. If you use LEDs, be aware that only the latest generation with significant sub 420nm spectrum seem to be adequate to keep delicate species, and even then, stony corals seem to do far, far better under T5HO or Metal Halides than even really good LED fixtures. Also keep in mind that even if you do have really good LED fixtures such as Kessils, Radion G3s, AI Hydra 52s, etc..., it's still easily possible to have them set high enough to fry the stuffing out of stony corals and still look dim to your eyes.
Finally, it's not uncommon for folks with a large population of soft corals such as leathers to have issues growing some of the more delicate stony coral species. This is typically attributed to coral allelopathy, wherein the soft corals emit chemical substances that inhibit the growth or outright kill neighboring stony corals. Some have been successful by running lots of GAC to absorb these compounds.
0.3 ppm phosphate is very high, and I'd work on that. You might want to try more of the phosphate remover, and it might need replacing daily for a while. A GFO might be safer, but the white pellets, usually alumina of some sort, will work, although they sometimes irritate, most often soft corals, though. You can use a phosphate test kit to see how long the media lasts. When the output of the reactor matches the tank, the media needs to be replaced, or there needs to be a lot more of it to match the flow. Ramping up on that slowly might help a lot. Tanks do seem to have trouble sometimes if the phosphate level is changed too rapidly, so I'd be careful about that.
Another possible issue is that the soft corals might be producing a lot of toxins, which can be an issue in some cases.
Another possible issue is that the soft corals might be producing a lot of toxins, which can be an issue in some cases.
Thanks for the inputs! As of last night I did change to a GFO for phosphates. I used "PURA PHOSLOCK" Seems a bit expensive to change frequently. Cost about $15 per dose for reactor. Do you recommend a cheaper version? I do have the hydra 52's for leds. I have the max output at 60 %. All the leathers are now gone I would be interested to see how the system reacts. Should I do a water change now that the leathers are gone? I did change my Carbon as well. Does anyone know if the green star polyps could cause this problem with lps and sps.? I heard they can be brutal as well (chemically)
dkeller_nc
New member
Youch, yes, that product seems awfully pricey. A lot of us use high capacity GFO from Bulk Reef Supply. It's a lot cheaper than the material that you mention.
So far as I'm aware, coral allelopathy is usually attributed to soft corals like leathers. A lot of us severely regret adding green star polyps to our tanks, but not because of that problem.
So far as I'm aware, coral allelopathy is usually attributed to soft corals like leathers. A lot of us severely regret adding green star polyps to our tanks, but not because of that problem.
If GFO gets expensive, it can be regenerated, although you'd need to handle lye and muriatic acid, which requires a lot of care. Also, lanthanum chloride solutions can precipitate phosphate as lanthanum phosphate, although you'd need to use a net or filter to catch the precipitate. I agree that the BRS products seem to be fine and are often a lot cheaper.
Ok understood. I will work on the phosphates. My tangs do a great job cleaning any algae off the reef and besides the once a day glass cleaning the tank is very clean. I still don't think that the phosphates at that level would effect my lps. I can see it effecting sps not lps. Am I wrong?
Phosphate can interfere with calcification, so I'd be cautious with any stony coral. Exactly what actually causes problems for corals in our tanks is hard to determine because there are so many variables and the controls are primitive. People have reported improvements in corals when the phosphate level is better, but some of that effect might be caused by other effects, like removing organics from the water column. GFO is pretty much a straight shot at phosphate control, though, so I think phosphate seems to be an issue in some cases, but probably not all. Why? No one knows.
Vinny Kreyling
Premium Member
Pool supplies stores -- usually SeaKlear brand phosphate remover.
