Captive bred vs. wild caught

freedive43

New member
With the new additions of captive bred fish on the market I was curious what people think about the value of cb vs wc fish. Do you think that cb fish are more valuable and should command a higher price than their wc counterparts? Or does the ability to raise a fish in captivity detract from its value due to the fact that it is no longer quite as rare?
 
Captive breed clarion is a good example.
Few months ago its way too expensive but with a flood of captive bred from Aquarich it maybe dropping quick to more manageable price. Maybe captive bred peppermint will happen too with your help and Karen.
 
I have not noticed the price drop at all on CB Clarions....they are still around 2500 wholesale and 3500+ retail.
 
Basic economics will lower the price to where producers and consumers can agree. It's just a matter of how long that will take.
 
Not necessarily. It is entirely up to the wholesalers / retailers to maintain price. For example Bali Aquarich are the only breeders of Clarions at this time which means they can dictate price on them, now with the WC ones there is only 1 licensed collector ( as far as I know ) which means that he can dictate price on them.

But eventually it will reach a saturation point where both CB and WC are not as frequently demanded.

For example, take the Peppermint Angelfish. If they are wild caught they carry a massive price tag because of the costs and risks involved in collecting them, however, if the Peppermints are CB they will maintain their price as it will allow you to have a ultra rare angelfish in your aquarium without the associated collection risks that go with it.
 
Not necessarily. It is entirely up to the wholesalers / retailers to maintain price. For example Bali Aquarich are the only breeders of Clarions at this time which means they can dictate price on them, now with the WC ones there is only 1 licensed collector ( as far as I know ) which means that he can dictate price on them.

But eventually it will reach a saturation point where both CB and WC are not as frequently demanded.

For example, take the Peppermint Angelfish. If they are wild caught they carry a massive price tag because of the costs and risks involved in collecting them, however, if the Peppermints are CB they will maintain their price as it will allow you to have a ultra rare angelfish in your aquarium without the associated collection risks that go with it.

Bali or the collector may be able to set a price on the fish to wholesalers, but if none of the wholesalers buy them then they can't sell them at the price they are trying to. When that happens they will either stop breeding/collecting or lower the price to move them. My thinking is lining up with the reduction in price, especially with captive bred. If Bali and the wholesalers have a surplus in CB clarions (more clarions than what consumers demand at given price), I doubt either will want to sit on the existing fish or just kill them off.
 
To answer the original question, IMO CB fish are worth more then WC, atleast to me they are. I would rather support a CB program then removing fish from the ocean. As well CB fish seem to be a lot hardier then WC.

When it comes to rare fish, I think CB fish will bring down the price of the rare WC fish just due to supply and demand. Their will be more on the market, that should be simple economics.
 
I will always pay a premium for CB as IMO they do much better in captivity. I know this is not always the case, but the majority of the time it is for us. I think it is also important to support the works of captive breeders or they will disappear as they are not being compensated for the time and effort that goes into breeding. It was sad to hear ORA stopped breeding mandarins because people did not want to pay the markup.

That being said, we have a lot of fish that are just not capable of being tank bred right now so we do the best we can. A rare fish is still a rare fish and it is going to take some time for prices to equalize.
 
I will always pay a premium for CB as IMO they do much better in captivity. I know this is not always the case, but the majority of the time it is for us. I think it is also important to support the works of captive breeders or they will disappear as they are not being compensated for the time and effort that goes into breeding. It was sad to hear ORA stopped breeding mandarins because people did not want to pay the markup.

That being said, we have a lot of fish that are just not capable of being tank bred right now so we do the best we can. A rare fish is still a rare fish and it is going to take some time for prices to equalize.

+1 I will a premium all day long for captive bred.
 
value will solely depend on numbers of specimen out in the market....
though captive bread has a edge over wild caught in the regard that it is expected to be hardier...for instant if pep angel is bred in captivity,i fully expect it will have more demand and more price than wild caught if breeder decided to let out limited no. of specimens....
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the prices on CB Clarions initially around
$4500-$5k? There are a handful available at wholesale for half that price ($2500).

My sentiments on the CB vs. WC fall in line with most of the posts above. I would be more apt to pay the premium for a captive bred fish, if the fish in question was not as hardy if it was caught in the wild, or if it just was not commonly collected. The peppermint angel falls into both categories.

However, in regards to the Clarion angel; this is a relatively hardy fish. The biggest drawback is there is one guy collecting them. I may consider buying a CB now, only because their prices have come more in line with wild caught.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Here's another question. What price point do you consider to be fair for a cb ultra rare angel? This is all just curiosity here - sorry no mass production of peppermint angels at the moment. Do you think there are enough collectors out there to sustain 100 pcs at $10k each? Or would the price come down dramatically? Does anyone know how many pcs of cb clarions were released to date? I think I remember rct's cb interruptus retailing for about $1400? I agree that cb fish is the direction that our industry should be headed in, however, one must remember that it is an industry. If investments are made into the arena of captive breeding, the simple fact is that it must be profitable in order to continue.
 
I was told that their were approximately 300 CB clarions and that is why some places are having a hard time moving them. At 2500-4000 a piece, their are only a limited number of people that can afford them.

When it comes to a fair price, that is all relative to the buyer. For example if I could get a CB clarion for $500 instead of $4,000 I still would not buy one, as I don't care for the fish. When it comes to Bandit angels, I got my WC ones for 500 and 600, but if I found a CB bandit, I would have been willing to pay 1,000, maybe even a little more.

For your other question regarding peppermint angels, I can't give you a true perspective as I can't afford to spend 10k on a fish anyways, but my guess is you would be easily able to sell the first 20 maybe even 50 at 10k but after the original people bought them that can afford it and actually like the fish, you would probably have a hard time selling the rest as not too many people are willing to spend that much on a fish. That's just my prediction but I could easily be wrong.
 
To me, all marine fish are unique and rare in their own right, and their value goes well beyond the dollar figure assigned to those sold in the marine aquarium hobby. As we see more and more species, capable of being bred in captivity, I am not sure what the outcome will be, say 10 years down the road. A best case scenario, I think, is that hobbyists have sources for both healthy and substantially captured marine fish, (since captive breeding will likely never be able to re-create wild diversity) and captive raised species, as they are known to be hardier and readily adapted to aquarium life.

That said, the most important issue that has arisen, that will ultimately effect fish costs, is environmental. It is vital that collectors worldwide are compensated for their efforts, and trained properly in capturing fish and maintaining their health up until the time of export. Paying collectors in remote locales minuscule amounts for marine fish, regardless of rarity, encourages them to pick up side work for the food industry or worse, the limestone industry. These two options can be very devastating to the environment, whereas sustainable collection is not.

If we could a higher percentage of captured marine fish to live, and offer a larger diversity of captive bred species - a bit of equilibrium could be established. There are many factors, one being fish outlets that don't properly educate new aquarists about species care or environmental conditions.

I believe, in order to help guarantee that resources both for captive breeding and wild collection hold out for generations to come, it is inevitable that prices for fish from either source, will go up. Sure, more rare species may be readily available because they can be captive bred, but their rarity should be determined more by the populations in the wild, not by our ability to breed them in the aquarium.
 
People stopped buying captive bred mandarins because they rarely, if ever, worked out. It was not a markup issue as far as I can ascertain.

Did they not work out due to feeding issues?
Do you think that captive bred mandarins would be marketable if they would eat readily available frozen foods such as PE mysis, LRS, Hikari etc.?
I'm wondering if I should start raising them again....
 
Just regarding paka's comment... My guess is theres a demand for CB mandarins but, given a preference in a reef tank, the mandarins will go for live pods. Competition from pod eaters as well as competition from other fish who can eat pellets etc...will limit long term hobbyist success. After all, a mandarin can't get all its food from an aquarist who say feeds twice a day. JMO.

PS before anyone recommends a mandarin diner to ensure enough food, don't forget any small fish that can fit will give that a try too.

None of the above means I'm against CB mandarins; just noting that the problems encountered when keeping them are still present.
 
love the idea of cb..
it is great for the industry if it is handled well- imo, the clarion were not..it is possible cb may be more resilient/hardy than wc but cb may come with their own issues (seen by some in gp) and headaches...many feel the tb clarion are not as beautiful as wc and as a result they are not selling in Asia and we have been getting much of the overflow...the price has dropped from 5k-1.5k, although when they reappear I think they will be back to 2.5k, especially seeing as how wc clarion probably wont be seen for years to come...

for a rare fish, 100 pieces at 10k, is totally doable...

now go get wet, need peppermints.....

hope all is well,

tk
 
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