Carbon Dosing & Skimmerless

[Bilk]

They just stay quiet. My x of 38 years did not know what I just shared.

After my divorce 5 years ago, from my soulmate of 38 years, I went off the deep end. After an abstinance of 30 years from pot and alcohol, I accumulated three DWI in six months. I opted for drug rehab thru the VA. Consequently some of the skeletons from Cambodia surfaced. Not until last month did I deal with my demons. While waiting to give blood samples at VA medical, I struck up a conversation with the man sitting next to me. I casually mentioned that I served in the Air Force in Cambodia as a mechanic on Puff the Magic Dragon. He looked directly in my eyes and said, "really".
"I was Deputy Commander of Special Operation in the Air Force at that time." That made him a Brigadier General. I was an E4, a buck sergeant. Until that point in time, I had never been able to talk about what I did. The damn broke and I unloaded my burden from all those years.
Several years ago, I talked to Paul B about co-authoring a book on those days. We both decided that it was too painful to dig up those feelings.
This is the extent of my war story details. I will not bring up these matters again. My therapist and friend charged me with making a public confession to unburden my soul.
It is completed. I will not return to those days again.
Patrick

I'm a bit younger than you. Probably not an appreciable difference at this stage of life, but I do remember being a kid in the 60s and 70s and understand the complications and divisions that occurred then. By the time I was of draft age the war was over for three years. All I can say is, thank you for your service to this country! Here's to looking ahead to more fish and corals

 

[triggreef]

I've been doing this for almost 2 years now. I got everything wrong I guess, vinegar dosing, DSB, no skimmer, GFO in a reactor, GAC also in a reactor, And I run a denitrator.

I also have a sump full of Macro algae, and a waterfall algae turf scrubber. I maintain alk at 8.4dkh and never tested ph ever.

My tank does pretty well and I have an excessive bio load. Theres a thread somewhere on reefcentral that is listing all your fish. Mine are listed.

 

[Subsea]

Bonsai

Bonsai

I've been doing this for almost 2 years now. I got everything wrong I guess, vinegar dosing, DSB, no skimmer, GFO in a reactor, GAC also in a reactor, And I run a denitrator.

I also have a sump full of Macro algae, and a waterfall algae turf scrubber. I maintain alk at 8.4dkh and never tested ph ever.

My tank does pretty well and I have an excessive bio load. Theres a thread somewhere on reefcentral that is listing all your fish. Mine are listed.

Trigg,
I knew I did not invent the wheel. Do you feel that the GFO is necessary? I could not detect orthophosphate in the water, so I have not used it. In fact, I added dipotassium phosphate to spur my macro growth.
Patrick

 

[Bilk]

Trigg,
I knew I did not invent the wheel. Do you feel that the GFO is necessary? I could not detect orthophosphate in the water, so I have not used it. In fact, I added dipotassium phosphate to spur my macro growth.
Patrick

Subsea, I forgot to ask, but how did you determine when to stop increasing the vinegar dose? Here you said you have undetectable phosphate, so what is the measure by which you determine what is an adequate regimen for dosing?

Most people who dose a carbon source are doing so to lower nutrients via skimming the bacterium that utilize it in concert with N & P. (this is my basic understanding - I'm no biologist, but I'm learning) They measure nutrient parameters and then begin dosing. Subsequent measurements determine whether an increase or even decrease is warranted based on the measures of N & P along with visual changes in the tank (if any).

What was the methodology you used to determine dosing volume? You seem to not be concerned with nutrient levels, or at least high nutrient levels, so how did you know when to stop?

 

[Subsea]

I will never stop the vinegar dosing. I want to find the sweet spot. For me, the goal is to have abundant filter feeders eating bacteria. In essence I will use bioindicators to determine the right dose level. That last double up was too fast on one tank. My 135G lagoon. During the night, oxygen levels got very low even though water never got cloudy. I have reduced dosage back to 150 ml/gal.
I will maintain this level for 60 days and observe bioindicators. In general, all live rock has more abundant micro feathers. I consider that my best indicator of adequate dosage level.
Instead of reducing nitrate & phosphate I strive for increasing micro fauna and fana.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

Subsea, I forgot to ask, but how did you determine when to stop increasing the vinegar dose? Here you said you have undetectable phosphate, so what is the measure by which you determine what is an adequate regimen for dosing?

Most people who dose a carbon source are doing so to lower nutrients via skimming the bacterium that utilize it in concert with N & P. (this is my basic understanding - I'm no biologist, but I'm learning) They measure nutrient parameters and then begin dosing. Subsequent measurements determine whether an increase or even decrease is warranted based on the measures of N & P along with visual changes in the tank (if any).

What was the methodology you used to determine dosing volume? You seem to not be concerned with nutrient levels, or at least high nutrient levels, so how did you know when to stop?

I used the WAG Principal. Wild *** guess. I figured with DSB and mud filter that I had double the biological filter as most. Therefore my goal was to arrive at double the recommended venigar dose or 1 ml/gal.
Patrick

 

[2_zoa]

Subsea, I forgot to ask, but how did you determine when to stop increasing the vinegar dose? Here you said you have undetectable phosphate, so what is the measure by which you determine what is an adequate regimen for dosing?

Most people who dose a carbon source are doing so to lower nutrients via skimming the bacterium that utilize it in concert with N & P. (this is my basic understanding - I'm no biologist, but I'm learning) They measure nutrient parameters and then begin dosing. Subsequent measurements determine whether an increase or even decrease is warranted based on the measures of N & P along with visual changes in the tank (if any).

What was the methodology you used to determine dosing volume? You seem to not be concerned with nutrient levels, or at least high nutrient levels, so how did you know when to stop?

I asked something similar. Based on the video I wouldn't have thought about doing something to the tank. I'd have been happy. LOL

Your doing this in your 75 gallon tank right? It has a deep sand bed right?

I thought large populations of bacteria used up oxygen levels to the point of losing fish? I remember reading about a tank (160ish gallons) in coral a few years ago who had a DSB and they weren't dosing any carbon sources and they had to keep a skimmer going due the bacteria population. They had to keep the tank aerated.

How do you intend to quantify your test? What will you consider to be a success? How will you know you made it to said point?

For my needs, I observe the results and decide if I like it. It is very little commitment on my part. After 44 years of reefkeeping, I have settled on laissez faire. I enjoy my reef tanks without having to prove anything. The idea of balancing nutrients in with natural biological filters is easy enough to accomplish. The idea of using vinegar as a carbon building block is a lot cleaner than a bunch of food added to the tank.

To your point about DSB using oxygen. After 44 years of experience with DSB, I am aware of that need. Using a surface skimmer and gravity feeding water to wet/dry filter with a reverse photo cycle has worked fine for me. Did you look at the link to Melvin's Reef on post #2. It documents 5 years of carbon dosing/skimmerless with a DSB. As in all things, it is a Question of Balance.
Patrick

I'm watching this for sure. I hope it all works out. I haven't had the go-nads to dose a tank without a skimmer. I've read to many posts where others have forgot to turn their skimmer back on after maintenance and lost a good bit of their tank within a 24 hr period.

 

[Subsea]

I lost three tangs overnight. I have three external pumps on my 135G lagoon with 12" DSB.
The Mag 18 pushes four 3/8" ID EDUCTORS to maximize vertical loop current. Only the tangs died. Mollies, Mono Argentus, Sea Apples and corals are OK.
I repaired Mag 18 and built in more redundancy with air pump and two small power head. This 135G is sumpless and skimmerless. For me, redundancy in circulation is a mandate.

A future upgrade will be a surge bucket using a toilett flapper valve. This will not happen again.

I brought in some extra HOB and cannistar pumps with GAC to clean up the mess. Friday, I will receive 7 yellow tangs and 20 Yellow tail Blue Damsels. Half will go in this tank.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

I have settled on a venigar dose rate of 1ml/G.

Upgrades to redundancy of circulation for 135G tank include two maxi jet 1200 power heads on two separate electrical circuits. I will include one of these power beads on a UPS backup system.
On Friday, I added five small yellow tangs and 15 blue yellow tailed damsels to this 135G lagoon. I have located a supplier of red tree sponge and orange tree sponge to add consumers of bacteria.
The tank is popping with color now.
Patrick

 

[mxett]

This is an interesting topic, thanks for starting it.

After some 'google' research on this topic I've decided to given carbon dosing a go on my skimmerless nano (80ltr). I've ready a few threads where people have successfully used biopellets or used vitamin C dosing without skimmers, so I'm hoping with caution it may prove beneficial.

My small reef has been running for about 3 months. Its a mixed reef with about 5kg of live rock, shallow aragonite sand bed, two small fish, a turbo snail, 3 SPS and 5 small soft corals. The reason I'm trying this is because I am struggling to get on top of some hair algae which began during startup. My nitrate has been undetectable (redsea pro) for weeks but my phosphate is 0.16 (redsea pro). I've used some phosguard which hasnt made a difference.

I've started dosing 0.4ml of NOPOX, which is half the minimum recommended dose for my tank size.

As far as bacteria export goes I suppose I'll be relying on predation from sponges and such existing on the live rock. I have also been performing an 8% water change every second day which will help export some phosphate and bacteria at the same time. My water changes are using RO/DI water and red seas salt.

I've successfully used carbon dosing on a larger system before, but this tank had a skimmer. One obvious area of concern when carbon dosing is oxygen depletion. However I tend to run my tanks at 23 degrees Celsius (with no ill-effects). Do you think running a tank at this lower temperature, with the increase in dissolved oxygen it provides, will be enough to offset any depletion due to bacteria consumption?

 

[Subsea]

What is NOPOX?

Lower temperatures reduce metabolic rates which should reduce oxygen demand. As you pointed out colder water will dissolve more oxygen.

Under stand this. Nutrients in do not have to equal nutrients out when you are growing coral and fish in your tank.
Patrvick

 

[mxett]

What is NOPOX?

Lower temperatures reduce metabolic rates which should reduce oxygen demand. As you pointed out colder water will dissolve more oxygen.

Under stand this. Nutrients in do not have to equal nutrients out when you are growing coral and fish in your tank.
Patrvick

NOPOX is a red sea carbon dosing product which is essentially ethanol and acetic acid, 5:1 ratio i believe. Ethanol isnt that cheap in Australia so it worked competitive.

 

[Aquarist007]

If you have unmeasurable nitrates then they will limit bacterial growth. You have high phosphates .. Suggest you use GFO still and stop the carbon dosing.
How were you running the GFO previously? If you were to run Rowaphos in a hang-on reactor then you could bring the level of phosphates down to .03 in days.
Then disconnect the media so phosphates don't leach back into the system. This occurs quite often after a dramatic reduction and measurement after can make it appear like the media is not working.

 

[mxett]

If you have unmeasurable nitrates then they will limit bacterial growth. You have high phosphates .. Suggest you use GFO still and stop the carbon dosing.
How were you running the GFO previously? If you were to run Rowaphos in a hang-on reactor then you could bring the level of phosphates down to .03 in days.
Then disconnect the media so phosphates don't leach back into the system. This occurs quite often after a dramatic reduction and measurement after can make it appear like the media is not working.

As stated, I've tried phosphate remover for more than a month with no luck. Firstly it didnt lower my phosphate, and secondly it didnt reduce the hair algae. My suspicion is the hair algae is utilising the nitrate as it is being formed, hence the negative test. I'd like to continue low dose carbon additives to see if I can reduce or even eliminate the hair algae, but also to provide some bacteria for the tank to consume. If this doesnt work I'll think about a hang on reactor, although with a small tank this would be my least preferred option. I'm hoping that if carbon dosing works I can control the amount of Nitrate and phosphate in the tank by adjusting the carbon dosage. I'm not sure I could be so accurate with a phosban reactor

 

[Aquarist007]

As stated, I've tried phosphate remover for more than a month with no luck. Firstly it didnt lower my phosphate, and secondly it didnt reduce the hair algae. My suspicion is the hair algae is utilising the nitrate as it is being formed, hence the negative test. I'd like to continue low dose carbon additives to see if I can reduce or even eliminate the hair algae, but also to provide some bacteria for the tank to consume. If this doesnt work I'll think about a hang on reactor, although with a small tank this would be my least preferred option. I'm hoping that if carbon dosing works I can control the amount of Nitrate and phosphate in the tank by adjusting the carbon dosage. I'm not sure I could be so accurate with a phosban reactor

I did read your post carefully but I don't think you have done the same

Carbon dosing does not substantially reduce phosphates
Gfo does
Bacteria will not increase without the three: carbon, phosphates and nitrates
Algae is happy to live on phosphates
Gfo will leech phosphates back into your system

 

[mxett]

I did read your post carefully but I don't think you have done the same

Carbon dosing does not substantially reduce phosphates
Gfo does
Bacteria will not increase without the three: carbon, phosphates and nitrates
Algae is happy to live on phosphates
Gfo will leech phosphates back into your system

from my understanding phosphate can definitely be reduced but only if there is a balnce of nitrate, phosphate and carbon. I realise i have no measurable nitrate, but I have read of many case where there is no measurable nitrate or phosphate but algae remains abundant. The cause is explained as a nitrate and phosphate issue which is consumed by the algae before it can be measure in the water column. Given the phosguard i used failed to help im trying a different tact. However Im still using the phosguard concurrently in case it helps.

if all else fails I'll consider a reactor

 

[Subsea]

I did read your post carefully but I don't think you have done the same

Carbon dosing does not substantially reduce phosphates
Gfo does
Bacteria will not increase without the three: carbon, phosphates and nitrates
Algae is happy to live on phosphates
Gfo will leech phosphates back into your system

Scotty,
You are broadcasting but you are not receiving. When bacteria grow, due to carbon dosing, do they not assimmilate both nitrate and phosphate. Would it not be conceivable to add nitrate and a carbon source to bring the bad boy, phosphate, down.
It is a differrent way to think.
Patrick

 

[codyreed29]

So just for an honest opinion on using bioballs.

I am putting together a new nano tank and have decided to use fluvial biomass and bioballs for the first part of my sump as well as a protein skimmer and RDSB with mangrove Calera and cheat morph. I have tried the mud and I'm passing the idea as I just don't have room for it.

Just to add all your information is good and I agree with 90 percent don't ask what I don't agree with. All seams true and I have seen the same things displayed thru my reef experience and we'll that's why I'm doing what I'm doing now.

 

[Subsea]

What is fluvial biomass?

I use them in my 12 year old Jaubert plenum. They are in a wet dry trickle filter. The dry part of the tricle filter promotes gas exchange with massive nitrification bacteria. In a 3 month test that I conducted, bioballs that were submerged with passive water movement using air bubbles processed nitrate more effectively that live rock. One pound of bioballs outproduce 10 lbs of live rock. Out of 7 media tested, only rock rubble processed more nitrate than bioballs. It is imperative to use a mechanical filter in front of the bioballs to prevent biofoulling from detritus.
I am a little confused about your use of mangrove when you say you are space limited. Mangroves grow to be trees. Is your remote DSB going to be to process nitrate or will you use it to feed your tank?
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

So just for an honest opinion on using bioballs.

I am putting together a new nano tank and have decided to use fluvial biomass and bioballs for the first part of my sump as well as a protein skimmer and RDSB with mangrove Calera and cheat morph. I have tried the mud and I'm passing the idea as I just don't have room for it.

Just to add all your information is good and I agree with 90 percent don't ask what I don't agree with. All seams true and I have seen the same things displayed thru my reef experience and we'll that's why I'm doing what I'm doing now.

I can stand disagreement. Tell me what and why. If I can't explain it than I need to study on it.
Thank you for the compliment.
I seek to learn,
Patrick