Chad's Simultaneous 225 SPS & 180 FOWLR Office Build

Time for an update! I picked up my stand and canopy last Thursday! Jeff exceded my expectations. I'm extremely happy with my purchase. I spent some time on Saturday and Sunday drilling the sump and tank. It's tough getting things done when you're by yourself. The tank is too big to move on my own so I've been doing things in phases. I don't have many post worthy pictures so here's a teaser for now:

<a href="http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/?action=view&current=puffer.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/puffer.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I hope to leak test by Sunday!
 
What do you think?

<a href="http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/?action=view&current=FishTankBuild065.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/FishTankBuild065.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Full access.

<a href="http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/?action=view&current=FishTankBuild066.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/FishTankBuild066.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

In case I decide to go bare bottom, 1/2" white foam from Lowes.

<a href="http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/?action=view&current=FishTankBuild067.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/FishTankBuild067.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Now the plumbing can begin!
 
By the way, if anyone is interested in having Jeff make a stand and canopy for you, here's his email address: jeff@jjcowell.com
His shop is in the Anahiem area. I had several people quote my stand and canopy out for me. He was the most reasonable and I'm amazed at the quality of his work. Not to mention impeccable customer service.
 
So if you go BB, are you going to place your LR on the foam. I have never heard of that. I highly recommend a mat between the tank and the stand. I have seen a thin excercise mat or a interlocking mat at Home Depot/OSH for garage floor padding used before though. I like the wood working. Any time frame of filling that empty glass box?
 
The foam is between the stand and the tank. I used 1/2" but I'm considering using 3/4". I took the protective paper off the tank so the white would show through. I hope to plumb it all out by Sunday!
 
Chad

Are you going to set your rock on stands or some structure to protect the bottom of the tank. Placing rock directly on the glass with all those pressure points makes me feel a bit squirrely.

I used egg crate under my rock and then placed my sand
 
Oops, I forgot that detail. I never run an acrylic tank, but, I think your are correct.

Worst case, another slab of acrylic under your rock does the trick.
 
I'm going out of my mind!

So I sold my puffer to a fellow RC member today. I showed him what I plannd to do with my 225 SPS build. He was of the "low flow through the sump" mind set. He thought my Barracuda was overpowered for a return pump. He got me thinking about power consumption again.

Tell me what you think of my potential new design:

I'm considering using my Dart for the return. The 1 1/2" outlet would T at the top of the tank into two outputs, these would go over the tank on either side of the overflow, then down and behind the rock. If I T the output off just above the pump onto a manifold like I was planning, and if my calculations are correct, I'll get MAYBE 900 - 1000 gph going through the sump. This is with minimal plumbing up and over the tank, feeding the media reactors (which will run in sequence), calcium reactor, and the chiller (500 gph). Anyone have experience with a Dart? Do you think I'll get sufficient flow behind my rocks after bleeding off so much flow to the chiller and reactors? How many gallons per hour do I need to push through a single 3/4" loc-line flare nozzle to get sufficient velocity? Is 450 enough? I'd planned on 750 - 800 out of each outlet using the Barracuda. It's really hard for me to make any sense of the head loss calculator and reeflo's graphs, but I figure I'm up against 10 feet of head pressure with this design, the top of my tank sits just under 6' tall.

If I had another Dart I'd use it on the closed loop with the OM 4-way 24/7. Instead, I'd be left with the Barracuda. This thing draws around 250 watts. I'm considering running it on the closed loop but for only 8 hours or so durring the day.

What do you guys think? Will running it during the day like that simulate a natural reef? Stronger flow durring the day? Calmer at night? Does anyone know what water movement on a natural reef is ACTUALLY like durring a 24 hour period?

I'd use 1" outlets on all four corners. The drum opens outputs 1 & 2 then 2 & 3 then 3 & 4 then 4 & 1. In theory this would move the water to the left, then cross in the front, then move it to the right, then cross in the back and repeat.

The original plan was to put the OM 4-way on the Barracuda as the return pump. With this set up, all four outlets would be on the top of the tank, along the front, pointing down at the face of the rock. One problem with this is that there might be a shadow from the two pipes feeding the middle outputs in the center. The other is that there'd be quite a bit of water going through the sump, as well as a good amount of energy being used 24/7. The plus, in my mind, is that by pushing more water through the sump, any detritus floating around in the tank would have a better chance of going up and over the overflow and into one of the two socks. Anyone know if this is a valid assumption? Is it just simply wasteful of energy? Is that the main reason people are starting to go "low flow through the sump" or am I missing something else? I designed my sump to handle a lot of flow so I'm not worried about bubbles. I'd really like to get your thoughts on the subject. BTW the flow through my skimmer is pretty low, only 350 gph. The difference in using the Dart over the Barracuda as the return is about 100 watts, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

According to Reeflo, at 10' of head pressure, a Dart will push 1,520 gph. A Barracuda at 10' will push 3,018. With the old plumbing design and the OM 4-way attached, the head pressure would have been a bit more, I think around 14', which would give me around 2,200 gph on the Barracuda. By simplifying the plumbing I'm making it way more efficient already. The way the pumps are designed I wasn't getting a whole lot of extra flow for my 100 watts. It seems these pumps drop off significantly at a certain head pressure. It seems as though with the old design I'm near the drop off point of the Barracuda and with the new design I'm near the drop off point of the Dart. Question is how correct am I in my calculations. It may be that the Dart is just right. It might also be that it won't be enough and that I'll need to run a seperate submersable pump to feed my chiller. I would actually rather waste some watts on the Barracuda before I add a submersable pump. I feel I'm defeating the purpose of a chiller by adding a hot running pump to the water. I'd almost rather try to go chillerless. In that case I think the Dart would be just fine. It'd just be nice to know I had the chiller installed "just in case". It gets really hot in my office over the summer weekends.

See why I'm going crazy? I have so many workable options. To find out which is best I need to put it together and run it. Problem with that is if I get it wrong, it won't be easy or cheap to change it after the fact.


Here's some pics of how I have it mocked up so far:

<a href="http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/?action=view&current=FishTankBuild068.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/thechad21_2006/FishTankBuild068.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

None of these pipes are cut to the right length, It's just to get an idea of how it'll all sit. I'll probably move the closed loop pump over to the right a bit more to make it slighlty easier to reach. Which brings me to another worry, how difficult is it going to be to maintain these things? Can I afford to place them towards the middle where I want them or should I move them as far over to the ends as I can to make them more accessable? There's going to be 11" of clearance between the wall and the tank.


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i saw your question on the main section or whatever it is called....your build looks very nice...are you by any chance a lawyer? every time i see those green desk laps i think of that lol. great looking setup!
 
Haha nope, not a lawer. Wish I was, business is booming for those guys! I import and manufacture construction products. I sell to the stores that sell to contractors. Not the best business to be in these days...
 
There are few buisnesses that aren't feeling a crunch right now, It seems only the scavengers do well in these markets.

Anyway, about the tank.

Wow!, there's alot to chew on in that post Chad! Keeping in mind, that my biggest tank so far is a 120 and I've only done a bunch of preliminary testing for my own 220, but I've done a bunch, the following represents my opinions and should be used at the risk of me being dead wrong.

IMHO, Flow thru the sump is always a highly debated number. I like 3-5x as a minimum, some folks run a lot more. Adequate filtration by socks, pads, GAC, GFO, & skimmer is a more important concern then volume, so don't get too twisted about it.

A 3/4" outlet at 350 gph is OK to GOOD flow. 800 is GOOD to GREAT flow. But again IMO, your return flow isn't as critical as your circulation.

I think you put the Dart on with the manifold to everything, GAC, GFO, Chiller, skimmer et al (lawyer term) and see how you like it. Did you use the Head Loss Calculator on the RC Home Page? It's handy.

You can order a upgrade impeler, for the Gold Dart ( I think it's like $30 ) and it'll kick your flow way up on the Dart. And if you think it's really going to be an issue, drill a 1" BH into the sump before you install it. Plug it for now, and if needed during your chiller season, use a 1" external pump for the chiller only when needed, it's a bit mor efficient.

For outlets in the center of the the tank, run the line over your reflectors or around the perimeter to avoid a shadow.

Put the Baracuda on the CL. You can run it 8-12 hours a day or how ever long you like. Restarting does impact pump service life, but probably not a lot on once a day. I forget, are you planning for any PH's like MP40s or Tunzes?

Also, you'll never come close to the flow on a natural reef, so don't sweat it. Although currents ease up at night a bit, I don't think the reef shuts down below what we can provide at any point in the day.

Another highly debated flow number is circulation. Turnover of 35 x to 65 x is tossed around all the time. But it's a hard number to measure with all the pulsing and such that goes on. In a 225, I'd target a max turnover of about 35-45 x if everything was on at once, and then look at your aquascape plan and try for as much random flow as you can with minimal dead spots. If you're like me, what ever you do now for circulation will have to be tweaked to adjust for aquascaping and coral placement .

At 11" behind the tank, if your built like me, you can get to the pump, but it won't be a peasant experience. Give yourself as much as you can. It's a good sized pump, and 3' is a long way to reach for it, so keep the pump(s) as near an end as possible.

I was looking back at your pics, and I can't say enough about how GREAT the satnd and canopy look!
 
Bax,

I can always depend on you for answers, thanks man!

I'm talking to Chris at Reeflo. I may end up buying another dart and two larger impellers. I think I want to run two Darts 24/7. One on the return, the other on the closed loop. Both pushing more flow than normal with the larger impellers. I think this will be the most efficient way to go. I'll just have to cross my fingers and hope a dart with a larger impeller will be able feed my chiller and still provide enough flow through my sump. We shall see!
 
I am betting you'll be OK as that is what I am planning when I redo my sump. One Dart feeding the 120 display, 75 fuge, 75 frag and 1/2 hp chiller. But I am also doing a one inch BH plugged so I can feed the chiller seprately if needed later on.
 
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