Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14483008#post14483008 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bolo Tran
So in order to prevent a monoculture, would a solution or a wiser path to take would be to dose prodibio?
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Re-read what mesocosm wrote... he basically refers to the science behind it and that creating an actual "monoculture" of bacterial just can't/won't happen.

Is it better to dose a solution of bacterial strains and carbon sources IMO. This can be done with Prodibio, ZEOvit, FM Ultralith, Brightwell, etc.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14487756#post14487756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by corvettecris
but I do know that all ULNS systems require a regular introduction of bacteria, including Neo Zeo, Zeovit, etc...
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You're confusing the term "ULNS" with "Probitotic" or "Bacterial Driven System."

ULNS means exactly what it stands for... a system with ultra low nutrients. How you get there is up to you ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14487304#post14487304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BradR
Thanks for the link. Was wondering though about having to dose the "Bio Digest" bacteria every 15 days per the article. That makes zero sense to me as the bacteria should be able to reproduce just fine once introduced.
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My understanding was due to mesocosm's statement above:

"Multiple bacterial strains living in close proximity within a biofilm are required for the symphony of oxidative & reductive chemical reactions that is necessary. The emergence of a single dominant strain screws up the geomicrobiological music."

It basically gives you the multiple bacterial strains. That was how I understood it. I could be way off....I have been many times before...:lol:
 
Re: Re: Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

Re: Re: Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14487765#post14487765 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stunreefer
Yes it can be sufficient, but the speed and how low the ULNS runs will differ from bacterial driven systems. Most times people will utilize chaeto in a fuge (or other caulerpa) along with GFO in order to maintain ULNS. Other equipment such as denitrifyers can also be implemented...
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You are right. I was categorizing all ULNS as Bac Systems, which is not the case. But I meant that all bac driven systems require a regular dosage of bacteria, for what reasons I do not know.
 
VSV.. BDS..Chaeto..all produce a ULNS JMHO. Probio and Zeo just make me LMAO. If U don't like Zeo, go with Neo-Zeo. It just SSMC BTW along with GFO.

Sometime, you really need a dictionary to read these boards...LOL
 
Re: Re: Re: Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

Re: Re: Re: Chaeto vs. VSV for ULNS

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14487889#post14487889 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by corvettecris
You are right. I was categorizing all ULNS as Bac Systems, which is not the case.
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:thumbsup: Gotcha...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14487889#post14487889 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by corvettecris
But I meant that all bac driven systems require a regular dosage of bacteria, for what reasons I do not know.
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Some of the bacteria is skimmed out along with the nutrients they uptake/process, so we must reintroduce more periodically.
 
I noticed my chaeto started to slowly die off as my tank had made it to the ulns state. I didn't think I would ever test to see not nitrates or phosphates. :)
 
My ridiculously small tank (10g) has a 4g fuge on it that is full of chaeto lighted by a 27w CF bulb.

I have a fairly heavy fish load and grow SPS just fine under the 4X24T5 (see sig for what I have, it's pretty jammed).


That being said, I am certain that chaeto can remove nitrates very, very low (I do not know how low but it certainly reads "0" on my high-tech redneck API kit).

What I am NOT convinced of is that chaeto can reduce PHOSPHATES that low. While my tank water tests below .25ppm, that means nothing in an SPS tank where we want below .03ppm.



The reason I suspect chaeto cannot drop phosphates is because, from what I have read and also corroborated with others on this forum is that the chaeto (and other alga) do not remove nearly the amount of phosphate as they do nitrate..... but require both to flourish.

Iron can also be a limiting factor.


If your chaeto has stopped growing or looks pale, increase the water flow around it if it looks like it isn't moving, and start dosing Randy's Fergon recipe.

I started doing that and my chaeto turned dark green again :D and my tank is still nitrate-0.
 
I've been dosing for the last 2 months and instead of my chaeto receding like all the experiences I've heard, it has actually grown better! That puzzles me.....has anyone else experienced this?
 
redfishsc said:
My ridiculously small tank (10g) has a 4g fuge on it that is full of chaeto lighted by a 27w CF bulb.

I have a fairly heavy fish load and grow SPS just fine under the 4X24T5 (see sig for what I have, it's pretty jammed).


That being said, I am certain that chaeto can remove nitrates very, very low (I do not know how low but it certainly reads "0" on my high-tech redneck API kit).

What I am NOT convinced of is that chaeto can reduce PHOSPHATES that low. While my tank water tests below .25ppm, that means nothing in an SPS tank where we want below .03ppm.

The reason I suspect chaeto cannot drop phosphates is because, from what I have read and also corroborated with others on this forum is that the chaeto (and other alga) do not remove nearly the amount of phosphate as they do nitrate..... but require both to flourish.

I started doing that and my chaeto turned dark green again :D and my tank is still nitrate-0.
Click to expand...

Bro talkin' ULTRA low nutrients here. like 0.01 phosphate, average tank with chaeto and everything is like 0.02... 0 on nitrates isn't accurate, the test you're talking about only measures starting at 5ppm, so nitrates could be anything up to 4-5 ppm.

this is closer to the conditions of the reef, most tanks are pretty close, and it's really phosphate you do want to eliminate, limits calcification.
 
redfishsc said:
My ridiculously small tank (10g) has a 4g fuge on it that is full of chaeto lighted by a 27w CF bulb.

I have a fairly heavy fish load and grow SPS just fine under the 4X24T5 (see sig for what I have, it's pretty jammed).


That being said, I am certain that chaeto can remove nitrates very, very low (I do not know how low but it certainly reads "0" on my high-tech redneck API kit).

What I am NOT convinced of is that chaeto can reduce PHOSPHATES that low. While my tank water tests below .25ppm, that means nothing in an SPS tank where we want below .03ppm.

The reason I suspect chaeto cannot drop phosphates is because, from what I have read and also corroborated with others on this forum is that the chaeto (and other alga) do not remove nearly the amount of phosphate as they do nitrate..... but require both to flourish.

I started doing that and my chaeto turned dark green again :D and my tank is still nitrate-0.
Click to expand...

Bro talkin' ULTRA low nutrients here. like 0.01 phosphate, average tank with chaeto and everything is like 0.02... 0 on nitrates isn't accurate, the test you're talking about only measures starting at 5ppm, so nitrates could be anything up to 4-5 ppm.

this is closer to the conditions of the reef, most tanks are pretty close, and it's really phosphate you do want to eliminate, limits calcification, also partially inhibits zooxanthellae in the corals, giving brighter colors (if supplemented properly) and actually increasing growth and reducing stress/bleaching.
 
With an ULNS many add amino acids, but they are in proteins. Why not just feed more (like frozen, Roti-Feast, pellets, etc.)? Wouldn't anything with protein in it do the same but be even more beneficial?
 
If your chaeto has stopped growing or looks pale, increase the water flow around it if it looks like it isn't moving, and start dosing Randy's Fergon recipe.

I started doing that and my chaeto turned dark green again :D and my tank is still nitrate-0.[/QUOTE]

What is Randy's Fergon receipe?
 
mesocosm said:
Greetings All !


Multiple carbon sources promote bacterial strain diversity within a biofilm. There's nothing theoretical about this ... the documentation in the literature is quite extensive, and crystal clear. What is utter nonsense is the notion that a single carbon source will generate a competitive exclusion dynamic that will ultimately result in the survival of a single bacterial strain (i.e., a monoculture). Long term dosing of a single carbon source will tend to produce a single dominant strain within the bioflim ... but not to the extinction of all other strains.

Not JMO ... this is the science. ;)
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Do you have any links to this documentation?
 
I run quite a bit of Macro algee in my Fuge. Between the grass and skimmer my tank is nutrient poor if anything. It has deffinetley achieved the same results as dosing Vodka without the hastle of daily dosing; and in a much more natural way. All I do is remove a basketball size piece of macro algee each week. Pretty simple.I use supps like rotti feast, oyster feast, phyto feast to keep my SPS from turning pale. I also feed quite heavily. The macro algee is constanly competing with the coral for nutrients. I had to turn my skimmer off for a few hrs a day because the macro algee does so well. IMO there is no question macro algee is more then sufficent to acheive a ULNS. Also note that I dont run carbon or GFO any more. It really isnt needed.
 
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