Cheaper Substrate? Need Opinions Please - Pics

[MattShack]

Sorry, I know this type of question is redundant.

I need some opinions on this. I found this at my local co-op. It is $7 for a 50 lb bag. I bought a bag today to take a closer look.

The brand is Unical "M" by ILC (The "M" stands for medium grit).

This is the information I found on it.

Table 1. Typical Limestone Sources
............................................Calcium ..............Magnesium
Calcium Carbonate...............38-40%..............0.1-0.8%
Ground Limestone................33-37%.................1-2%
Magnesium Limestone..........25-32%.................3-9%
Dolomitic Limestone..............20-23%................10-13%

Other Sources of Calcium
Marble Dust . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38%
Oyster Shell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38%
Aragonite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38%
Calcite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38%
Gypsum (calcium sulfate ) . . . . . . . . . . 22%
Steamed Bone Meal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31%
Meat and Bone Meal . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8-14%
Calcium Phosphates
Monocalcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15-18%
Dicalcium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-22%
Defluorinated . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31%

 

[Kenzy]

At a guess I'd say you will likely see nitrates and phosphates released from the sand.

I would set up a 10g with a DSB and a PH for water movement and a small piece of LR and let it cycle. Could be interesting to see the results and it wouldn't cost much to find out if its usable or not.

 

[uncleof6]

I am seeing a probable source of phosphates, but not a probable source for nitrates.....

Matt, the other thing you have to consider in this craze for the ultimately cheap sand bed, is the shape of the grains, as well as the size. These critters we SHOULD be encouraging to thrive in sand beds are not only adapted to a particular grain size, but also a particular grain shape. Silica based sand, as well as most "ground up" limestone has a rough jagged shape to it. Now, this is not all inclusive. The rough jagged shape does not make for a fluid sand bed, and you want a fluid sand bed, and liken a small critter crawling through this sand bed, to swimming in a pool of shattered tempered glass.........anyway the search continues...

J

 

[troylee]

Do like khaos did see that petsmart gives you cupons for being a nice guy and realize they offer free shipping on orders over 60bucks, so order 800lbs of sand..:lol: its actually a good price 60lb bags for 30$ or something.....and nice stuff I'm using it in my current display...

 

[MattShack]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15505005#post15505005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
I am seeing a probable source of phosphates, but not a probable source for nitrates.....

Matt, the other thing you have to consider in this craze for the ultimately cheap sand bed, is the shape of the grains, as well as the size. These critters we SHOULD be encouraging to thrive in sand beds are not only adapted to a particular grain size, but also a particular grain shape. Silica based sand, as well as most "ground up" limestone has a rough jagged shape to it. Now, this is not all inclusive. The rough jagged shape does not make for a fluid sand bed, and you want a fluid sand bed, and liken a small critter crawling through this sand bed, to swimming in a pool of shattered tempered glass.........anyway the search continues...

J

Thanks Jim... Are you talking about the oyster shells for phosphate?

I did check the grain size and texture. I rubbed some between my fingers and compared it to some CaribSea sugar fine and can't tell the difference that way. I also looked at it through a 10x loupe and it appears to be pretty smooth shape, didn't notice jagged edges.

2000 to 3000 lbs of sand from the LFS is just not feasible for me at around $1 per pound.

 

[MattShack]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15505354#post15505354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by troylee
Do like khaos did see that petsmart gives you cupons for being a nice guy and realize they offer free shipping on orders over 60bucks, so order 800lbs of sand..:lol: its actually a good price 60lb bags for 30$ or something.....and nice stuff I'm using it in my current display...

I doubt that would work for me. I don't think I'm that nice :lol:

I need a lot more than that. That's still $1000 for sand minimum. I don't mind spending money for something I think is worth it, but I'm having a problem spending $1000 for some sand.

 

[29reef]

What about no sand? Maybe thats too radical for you? Perhaps Starboard? Or what about just some sand here and there kinda scattered around the tank. Seems like a lot of work for something that IMO you dont even need to have. If you feel the need for sand in your ecosystem then maybe a 5-20 gal remote DSB is right for you. Just giving you options.....

 

[MattShack]

Thanks Brian.

I like the benefits of the sand bed for all of the macro life. Also, I plan to have fish that burrow.

 

[erics3000]

I would stay away form it. I mixed a bunch of play sand with a couple hundred lbs live but really hate the small size now..I myself like a the biggest grain sand and want to change mine out some time down the road. I would just buy a few bags of some good reef grade sand size you like, and you can add more down the road. I wouldn't skimp here...........

 

[MattShack]

Eric, thanks for the info. I don't want to skimp. Just looking for alternatives, if they're out there.

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14916350#post14916350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
Cribsea live sand does not have much "live" in it. You are paying for the water. Use a dry sand, preferably calcite, or aragonite based, and use real seed stock. Silica sands work, however do not make the best sand bed. The best sand bed is more fluid, and has a mixed grain size to support a wider bio-diversity, than the limited grain sizes with playsands (regardless of composition) The information is out there, just got to look for it.

Jim

You got 4 choices Matt:

Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2 (White or translucent)
Calcite (CaCO3) (White or translucent) (1 of 3 naturally occuring Calcium Carbonate minerals)
Aragonite (CaCO3) (Also naturally occuring mineral)
Clean (un-oiled) Silica Sand.


That mixture of stuff ya got there? I would not use it.

 

[MattShack]

Thanks Jim, I don't want Silica Sand. I haven't looked for calcite and I'm having trouble finding anyone that knows what Dolomite is much less actually finding Dolomite (which is what I prefer).

 

[uncleof6]

Dolomite is Calcium Magnesium Carbonate. In pure form, it it is white or translucent.... it sometimes has impurities in it, such as iron. Back in the day, dolomite was as easy to get as aragonite is now... but I understand the cost factor involved in a dsb the size you need... hey did you think of that in the early planning stages?

Jim

 

[MattShack]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15508658#post15508658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
hey did you think of that in the early planning stages?

Jim

haha... I did.... I didn't say I wouldn't buy aragonite. I said I didn't want to. :lol:

Plus, I knew when I started that I could use Dolomite. I actually started looking for Dolomite long before I started actually building. When I ask someone around here if they carry Dolomite, I just get a blank stare. I can tell they have no idea what I'm talking about, but they don't want to tell me and look stupid.

 

[29reef]

What macro life will you benefit from with a whole tank full of sand? I think a few hundred pounds scattered in areas of about 1-3 inches is still your best bet.

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15511283#post15511283 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 29reef
What macro life will you benefit from with a whole tank full of sand? I think a few hundred pounds scattered in areas of about 1-3 inches is still your best bet.

Well, perhaps you will find an answer here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

J

 

[horkn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15505354#post15505354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by troylee
Do like khaos did see that petsmart gives you cupons for being a nice guy and realize they offer free shipping on orders over 60bucks, so order 800lbs of sand..:lol: its actually a good price 60lb bags for 30$ or something.....and nice stuff I'm using it in my current display...

That offer does not apply to heavy items, like sand. Trust me, I tried for my 193g i am building.....

I did get that deal a while back for my 90g, with free shipping on caribsea's special reef grade in big bags, but they got smart and have the little issue with heavy or oversized items, and sand in those bags is one of the things they do not honor the free or low shipping costs on.

When I put 3 big bags of the special reef sand in my shopping cart, the standard shipping was more than the 3 bags of sand was.

 

[dantimdad]

Matt,

You can find dolomite in N. Alabama.

Do you want me to find some prices?

It may be worth the drive over here.

dantimdad

 

[MattShack]

dantimdad, that would be great. I have been searching surrounding states and found that Alabama has a few suppliers. I contacted 2 companies in Birmingham and one actually had a location about 15 miles from me. I went there yesterday and they don't carry and won't order it. They didn't even know what it was. I told them that their company carried it and they said they didn't. I finally made them go to their own website to prove they did That's when they said they didn't carry it at that location and wouldn't order it.

I will drive to a surrounding state to pick it up if I can get it for a good enough price.

If you don't mind or know some local places, that information would be much appreciated.

Thanks again.

 

[uncleof6]

Is it dolomite, or dolomitic?

Nikola Tesla, a much unappreciated thinker..........

Jim