check out this re-sale..

[organism]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924380#post6924380 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy

So to try and say that there is only one true superman, PPE, PM, etc is ludacruis at best. Just because some one decided to put a name on a certain peice of coral that came from the ocean does not make it any more rare or worth more than a exact identical coral that came in without a name.


I don't need a peice of papaer or a leianage on a coral to tell me it came from so and so and should be worth this much.

exactly! when someone can show me pictures of the Tyree DNA manufacturing lab for new corals, then I'll say that pedigree counts, until then, there are so many LE corals that come in wild on a constant basis, that it's the manufacturers of the LE name that try to tell you that they aren't the same to hype their own pockets
chances are there are at least 20 other identical colonies within 100 ft of where any limited edition coral was picked, and that's a very conservative estimate...

 

[GMAX]

But that would mean that the coral bought for $150 for 1/2 inch spec of coral was the crazy purchase and not "untrue" one!

Seems like the person wanting to get more for a coral might be the guy trying to claim some unique lineage or other distinguishing factor.

Now if corals where treated like roses or orchids and hybrids were created by genetic manipulation and engineering the point might be more valid on why something is unique. But the South Pacific is vast and even so called rare corals show up pretty regularly.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924542#post6924542 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GMAX
Now if corals where treated like roses or orchids and hybrids were created by genetic manipulation and engineering the point might be more valid on why something is unique. But the South Pacific is vast and even so called rare corals show up pretty regularly.

Yep.

I got a frag growing out now. The mother colony that it came from looks exactly like a ling sy cap. But since it didn't come from him or some one who has his, I guess, according to some people, I'm not allowed to call it one. That's OK, I still like it for what it is, a nice looking coral.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924514#post6924514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by organism
exactly! when someone can show me pictures of the Tyree DNA manufacturing lab for new corals, then I'll say that pedigree counts, until then, there are so many LE corals that come in wild on a constant basis, that it's the manufacturers of the LE name that try to tell you that they aren't the same to hype their own pockets
chances are there are at least 20 other identical colonies within 100 ft of where any limited edition coral was picked, and that's a very conservative estimate...

When tyree admits any of his corals are elsewhere, he loses money. The leng sye was given to 3 or 4 reefers, and atleast one of them HEAVILY distributed it.

Theres a reefer in my area, who has swapped stuff with Tyree a couple times, and a bunch of her stuff has become LEs.

Everyone around here has it, becuase shes fragging all the time. Most of the Tyree LE thing is marketing, nothing else.

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924380#post6924380 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
How do you think corals in teh ocean get where they are? They are broken off of a large coloney by boats, fish, currents, etc and move dto other parts of teh ocean to grow into another coloney. Same thing we do by fraging.

Actually, most are the result of sexual reproduction ... which would leave genetically distinct `children'.

`Looks like' can mean very different things - and while I see that it is a way for people to attach `branding' to a live creature - those who import new corals + name them after named varieties as just as greedy [if not more] than those who started the LE name.

IMO, while there may be a number of women who look quite like my wife - I'm kind of preferential to her specific DNA sequence. Similarly - Montiporas come in a variety of colors + some look like - but that does not mean that a similar looking coral is as hardy, will color as easily, or has the history of captive success as a tank-raised one.

Sure, there may be similar colonies in the ocean - but similar does not equal the same. As I don't buy the wild colonies that look like the ORA tort - I buy the `real deal' ... I don't see how one can throw out some names, without throwing them all out.

And if you're going to argue that a new wild specimen that `looks like' a Cali tort, or green slimer, or Larry Jackson purple-tip - that these will have the same hardiness, coloring, and will perform just exactly the same, that in a year they will be identical ... I'd bet against that possibility, most any day.

Ever had two different individual fish of the same species ... but that act quite differently? [one a bully, one not] ... seems pretty common in this hobby, and IMO leads one to wonder why fish can look the same + act differently ... yet corals can't? They both look the same ....

IMO - people taking wild colonies, naming them after captive-breeds + jacking the price because of that IMO seem more greedy than those who started the naming-trend in the first place. In the end, they're both greedy ... but at least one is selling a known commodity. Those `superman-like' corals could be very touchy, color terribly in aquaria, or be a different species altogether.

Just my take. IMO, the popularity of these I find quite silly when most of the folks pursuing these are unlikely to be keeping stony coral tanks in the 3-5 years it would take to grow a significant colony from a 1/2" frag ... I could be wrong about this ... but IMO sometimes it gets to where without a name, a coral is somehow less beautiful.
Just one more thing I don't get, I guess.

 

[GMAX]

Did anyone else wonder how long a dip in the elevated salinity bath at the wholesaler it takes for a coral to become aquacultured? Seriously if not just a swish, is a week, a month or some other arbitrary time period the right length to convert the wild to aquacultured? Does aquaculturing have any other required processes? Or it it the dip, extended dip, really extended dip that does it? I am being a bit toungue in cheek here for those who dont know me at all.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Mark, I do agree with some of what you have said. To me, I think you are right, we should throw away all of the "naming" of the corals. Most of it was done, it seems, to line someones pockets. And because of that, there is now an over inflated price on a lot of them because some one just has to have a LE this or that, nothing to do with the coral it's self.

As far as the coral it's self, yoru right spawning is also another way the corals propogate. I do understand where you are coming from with the DNA aspect. But I don't think this hobby will ever get that far that we are doing DNA research on each and every coral. If we do, then IMO, it's no longer a hobby.

But I do question one thing as I am ignorant on the subject at the moment. Of the corals that carry the names and LE monikers, were they not brought in as wild corals? You say captive bred which leads one to think that two corals were broght in and bred, ie spawned in a tank and these neamed/LE corals are teh result of that spawning and rearing. I don't think that's where they came from. They were at one time wild colonies and were captive raised/fraged and sold as captive raised frags which is completely different.

But still even so, what gives anyone the right to take a coral, wild or otherwise, and give it a name. Do you think if you or I gave one of our unique corals a name it would stick?

 

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924380#post6924380 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
SO Travis,

Well, I'm sorry but I'm not going to stoop to your level of immaturity and beat a dead horse that has already been beaten beyond submission multiple times in the past.

Sure, I totally agree that there is not any one single specimen in the ocean. But in the case of the superman, someone got this coral a long time ago. It has proven its hardiness and ability to hold its color in captivity. As for all the "supermans" that are coming in these days, I have yet to see one that is as colorful as the original. There is also no way of knowing how hardy they will be. They are also being sold for prices similar to what the original goes for. I guess if I am going to buy a superman and I want to KNOW I am going to get one that will hold its color and be hardy then I am going to put my money towards one of the originals. I'm not saying that none of the supermans coming in are not the same. I'm just saying that if I am going to spend the money, I will spend it on one that has proven itself. After all, the price is pretty much the same, not to mention I would rather buy a captive raised frag and lessen the impact on the natural reefs.

FWIW, I have a lot of LE's in my tank. Some of them I waited on wait lists for years for and paid top dollar. I sell frags of them for $15-20. So I'm not into the whole price hyping thing either.

But hey, thanks for jumping down my throat anyways.:rolleye1:

 

[RichConley]

Travis, the thing is, a LOT of the LEs Tyree gets from other hobbiests, some of which have been spread heavily in certain areas of the country. A lot of these corals are not rare, theyre just being sold for the name.

The woman near me has a PM the size of a medicine ball.

 

[GMAX]

Man imagine the frags off of that at 1/2 ich per whack. Retirement here we come.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Travis, Not being immatuer or jumping down your throat. Sorry if you took it that way.

There seems to be a mentality out among the reefers that in order to have a certin coral, such as a superman monti, then you must be able to trace the leinage back to the original coral that, by the way, came from the ocean. I'm sorry but I do not agree with that.

Apparently you are one of the few then if you are selling your "LE/Named" frags for 15 - 20 bucks. I applaud you for that. I too would rather buy captive raised corals when possible.

But IMHO, I think it's nothing more than a marketing hype to add any "name/LE" moniker to any coral. If it was so rare or Limited, then it would still be in the ocean or in some museum somewhere, NOT in our tanks.

Your right, it's a long beat dead horse. Some beleive in the hype, others like myself think it's rediculous.

 

[Travis]

Sorry for taking it the wrong way. Sometimes it is so easy to misinterpret things on the internet.

I also do not agree with what Tyree does. I got most of my LE's from him but will not be ordering from him again because I have chosen to no longer support him for what he is doing. When I got on those wait lists was at a time where I didn't have many other friends in the hobby (I live in the middle of nowhere and there is only 1 other sps keeper around for hundreds of miles) so that was the only option I had for getting some of the corals I wanted. I have since met a lot of good friends and trade regularly. Usually money is not even involved. I have traded a lot of LE's for noname corals or have just given frags away.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

 

[GMAX]

<i>have just given frags away.</I>

Travis can we be friends. JK of course.

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6925368#post6925368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GMAX
<i>have just given frags away.</I>

Travis can we be friends. JK of course.

If you're kidding, then let me be for real.

Travis sounds like the kind of reefer I've come to meet many of - despite being a rare breed. Perhaps we should call Travis a LE reefer :thumbsup:

 

[Unarce]

I've seen a few of these aquacultured versions. They turned completely purple in one of our LFSs. Wholesalers are charging $50 for a small colony. It's a very attractive piece on its own, but definitely isn't like the Superman. I referred to it as the Bizarro Danae on another board, but should, at best, be called the Tongan Superman, or a clone, like some of the Leng Sy Caps.

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924982#post6924982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
But I don't think this hobby will ever get that far that we are doing DNA research on each and every coral. If we do, then IMO, it's no longer a hobby.

True - but by cutting frags I'm cloning. Whether or not I do a DNA analysis - I can be positive that frags of my corals are the same, and that anyone I pass them along to [and who passes them along further] ... I could take their piece + my colony - and grow them together again.

IMO, some of the `naming' is an attempt to link these genetically identical corals together - apart from similar, but not exact, versions.

The LE thing is a whole 'nother issue, IMO. Naming itself is like saying I have `Travis' purple stumpy Acro' ... it can [but doesn't need to] have some perceived rarity attached.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6924982#post6924982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
Of the corals that carry the names and LE monikers, were they not brought in as wild corals?
.....
Do you think if you or I gave one of our unique corals a name it would stick?

If you trade it widely - and it's a stunner like the rest of these ... IMO I don't see why not.

IMO, if all the polyps were grown in an aquaria - then it's captive propagated. Many of these corals have been passed through a number of tanks - where evidently they did well enough to be fragged. IMO - this captive history [multiple tanks/keepers] is part of what makes captive grown corals valuable IMO. Multiple people have failed to kill it in aquaria - where a wild coral, there's not that knowledge.

Do realize, none of this denies that these aren't beautiful, wonderful corals to keep for their own sake. That every wild coral that comes in [or maricultured] could be more beautiful, prove to be very hardy, etc ... it just doesn't have that history yet. Your next one could be the most desirable coral ever ... or not. Just because it hasn't gotten a `trade-name', doesn't mean it won't.

But somehow calling these wild corals by captive-lineage names IMOis like calling a dyed blonde natural. Whether it looks the same, it ain't. Not that there's anything less beautiful about either ... but I prefer truth in advertising.

Whether `official' or `similar' ... if it looks good, thrives for you ... why get attached to a name?

Plays into marketing IMO - as somehow people are more willing to pay $100 for a tiny colony if it has superman attached as a name - where folks won't if it isn't? Not sure I understand that ...

Seems like the folks buying these `wild-LE' corals are driving this market - as the purists are annoyed, and those who care less about brand-names would choose the cheaper version or not buy the overpriced frag.

Just my take on it. We're all allowed to differ in opinion, just politely

 

[tnyr5]

i agree,
whether you think the LE hype is worth it or not, if you're going to pose another coral as a superman knockoff, it should at least have the same colors :-[

 

[GMAX]

You know if you buy a Superman monti that is blue and green, you probably dont know what a Superman monti is, so how could you be influenced by that name in any MEANINGFUL way whatsoever?

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Whether `official' or `similar' ... if it looks good, thrives for you ... why get attached to a name?


EXACTLY.


Plays into marketing IMO - as somehow people are more willing to pay $100 for a tiny colony if it has superman attached as a name - where folks won't if it isn't? Not sure I understand that ...



Me either.



Seems like the folks buying these `wild-LE' corals are driving this market - as the purists are annoyed, and those who care less about brand-names would choose the cheaper version or not buy the overpriced frag.





Just my take on it. We're all allowed to differ in opinion, just politely