jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I have some Zoos that have a red center with greens skirts, and as they grow and divide, I notice some have a green center with red skirts. What determines the colortaion of zoos? Is it chance, or what?
color determination
- Thread starter jmaneyapanda
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Chad Vossen
New member
i had a small group of pink zoos pop out a green zoo. the color pattern is the same and they glow the same but the one is a lime green while the others are all salmon pink.
Stixbaraca
New member
I have no scientific knowledge, but my bet guess would be that it would be some sort of DNA (not sure if DNA is even in Zoanthids). I think it is predetermined, and when an odd ball pops out it would be some sort of genetic defect. I could be way off base here, and I am sure someone will step in and correct me!
MinibowMatt
Active member
Hmm.. I dunno, I have seen some big colonies where 2 colors are growing into each other, and a third color (a mix of the two) shows up in the middle. I wonder if it is some type of mating or like Stix said, a genetic thing..
chemisfun11
New member
I'm pretty sure the zooanthella algae are responsible for the color change and they do have DNA (all living things do). A mutation in the DNA could possibly change the phenotype (physical change) of a species.
Stixbaraca
New member
The it sounds like the zoanthid colors are predetermined by the DNA in their zooxanthalae
Couple comments:
There are some scientific papers out there that deal with coloration of corals and other clonal cnidarians (which includes all zoanthids)... and basically no one knows exactly what causes Zoanthus and other cnidarians to have such a wide array of colors. But there are a couple things we can state:
1. Color within a colony is not necessarily the product of DNA mutation, but rather expression of different fluorescent proteins (FP) (ie some DNA gets turned off, other DNA gets turned on). We can say this because all polyps in a connected colony have the SAME DNA (unless a mutation occurs) - new polyps are the product of asexual reproduction.
2. There are way too many colors that appear in new polyps for colors to be the result of mutations.
3. Polyps and colonies can change color over time, despite having the same DNA.
So, FP expression changes. This may be linked to environment, or zooxanthellae, or both, or none! One paper that recently came out linked the evolution of different FPs (red, green, cyan, etc.) to zooxanthellae association, but how this came about is unknown. But this is dealing with cnidarians (Zoanthus etc.) sexually reproducing over long periods of time, not new polyps appearing asexually on a colony.
does this help?
James
There are some scientific papers out there that deal with coloration of corals and other clonal cnidarians (which includes all zoanthids)... and basically no one knows exactly what causes Zoanthus and other cnidarians to have such a wide array of colors. But there are a couple things we can state:
1. Color within a colony is not necessarily the product of DNA mutation, but rather expression of different fluorescent proteins (FP) (ie some DNA gets turned off, other DNA gets turned on). We can say this because all polyps in a connected colony have the SAME DNA (unless a mutation occurs) - new polyps are the product of asexual reproduction.
2. There are way too many colors that appear in new polyps for colors to be the result of mutations.
3. Polyps and colonies can change color over time, despite having the same DNA.
So, FP expression changes. This may be linked to environment, or zooxanthellae, or both, or none! One paper that recently came out linked the evolution of different FPs (red, green, cyan, etc.) to zooxanthellae association, but how this came about is unknown. But this is dealing with cnidarians (Zoanthus etc.) sexually reproducing over long periods of time, not new polyps appearing asexually on a colony.
does this help?
James
Reef Junkie
Premium Member
So what this paper is saying is that the normal process of colonial spreading (asexual division) does not influence the FP and that sexual reproduction does?
That is really interesting.
Yet, I've seen some of my colonies asexually reproduce and have had different (albeit not by much) colored polyps show up.
I think that a lot of us have seen this too.
Does anyone here believe that two seperate colonies growing into each other can form a new "color morph" polyp?
Stixbaraca
New member
I don't buy that...but only because I haven't seen it. I have seen 2 colonies grow into each other, and one more dominate choke the other out. If this were true I would be trying to get some cazy color morphs in the future!!!
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I guess I agree with Jreimer as to the fact that there are so many possible determinants in color. Look at acros- a simple change in light intensity or color or duration can turn a brwon acro vivid pink. This is obviously not DNA, but environemental.
Also, if it were DNA, I would assume all the reproductive offspring would be identical. I'm not sure that mutation of the genetic code works the same way in invertebrates which reproduce by fission, as comparesd to vertebrate sexual reproduction.
Also, if it were DNA, I would assume all the reproductive offspring would be identical. I'm not sure that mutation of the genetic code works the same way in invertebrates which reproduce by fission, as comparesd to vertebrate sexual reproduction.
Reef Junkie
Premium Member
Stix,
That was a leading question.
I'd like to see more people promoting the idea that placing two colonies next to each other will not produce a new color morph. Unless they spawned and interbred. I'm not even sure if that's possible, but it's more likely.
BTW, how'r you doing bud?
jmaneyapanda,
I agree as well. Yet, (and this is what I always say) no one talks about Alk playing a major role in influencing the color of our zoanthids.
Case and point... Here are two pictures of the same protopalythoa. The first is when I first got it. It came from a tank with an alk about 2.0-2.5.
Here is that same colony after being in my tank 3-4 months with an alk of 3.5 - 4.0.
Plus, whenever my zoas/protopalys lose color or fade, I always know my alk is a bit low. Whenever I bump it up, they color back up.
That was a leading question.
I'd like to see more people promoting the idea that placing two colonies next to each other will not produce a new color morph. Unless they spawned and interbred. I'm not even sure if that's possible, but it's more likely. BTW, how'r you doing bud?
jmaneyapanda,
I agree as well. Yet, (and this is what I always say) no one talks about Alk playing a major role in influencing the color of our zoanthids.
Case and point... Here are two pictures of the same protopalythoa. The first is when I first got it. It came from a tank with an alk about 2.0-2.5.
Here is that same colony after being in my tank 3-4 months with an alk of 3.5 - 4.0.
Plus, whenever my zoas/protopalys lose color or fade, I always know my alk is a bit low. Whenever I bump it up, they color back up.
hmmm...
hmmm...
Interesting - alk brightens up the zoanthids you say? How long does this take?
I would be interested also in hearing about colonies growing into each other - they would have be very closely related to do that i think. I have some pics of Zoanthus spp. from a few sites where they grow up next to each other, but DON'T merge. Of course, with the polyps open and oral disks expanded this is really hard to see...
For some reason I can't seem to post a pic on here (Apple/Japanese OS), but drop me a line if you want a pic, and I can e-mail it to you.
cheers,
James
hmmm...
Interesting - alk brightens up the zoanthids you say? How long does this take?
I would be interested also in hearing about colonies growing into each other - they would have be very closely related to do that i think. I have some pics of Zoanthus spp. from a few sites where they grow up next to each other, but DON'T merge. Of course, with the polyps open and oral disks expanded this is really hard to see...
For some reason I can't seem to post a pic on here (Apple/Japanese OS), but drop me a line if you want a pic, and I can e-mail it to you.
cheers,
James
chemisfun11
New member
Reefjunkie,
Interesting observations regarding alkalinity. I just purchased a protopalythoa colony that looks like your first pic, and I keep my alk in the 3.5-4.5 range. Needless to say I hope in few months they look like your second pic
There are so many variables and differences between everyone's tank, parameters, flow, maintenance etc. It may be very difficult to isolate a direct correlation between any two variables.
Just my $.02
Interesting observations regarding alkalinity. I just purchased a protopalythoa colony that looks like your first pic, and I keep my alk in the 3.5-4.5 range. Needless to say I hope in few months they look like your second pic
There are so many variables and differences between everyone's tank, parameters, flow, maintenance etc. It may be very difficult to isolate a direct correlation between any two variables.
Just my $.02
Reef Junkie
Premium Member
James,
Yes, from my experience, a few days to a few months. It depends on their (zoas) condition and the condition of the aquarium.
If you'd like, e-mail me the pic and I'll post it for you. reefphd@yahoo.com
chemisfun11,
There are many factors to consider and a steady high alk will almost definitely help your corals color up.
Hey, I may be in your town Friday night for hotrod night at the trainstation.
Yes, from my experience, a few days to a few months. It depends on their (zoas) condition and the condition of the aquarium.
If you'd like, e-mail me the pic and I'll post it for you. reefphd@yahoo.com
chemisfun11,
There are many factors to consider and a steady high alk will almost definitely help your corals color up.
Hey, I may be in your town Friday night for hotrod night at the trainstation.
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Lazyreefer
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure the zooanthella algae are responsible for the color change and they do have DNA (all living things do). A mutation in the DNA could possibly change the phenotype (physical change) of a species.
Hmmmm..... Maybe a can ask Dr. Paul.
Hmmmm..... Maybe a can ask Dr. Paul.
lazyreefer,
Yes, a mutation CAN change phenotype, but that is not what is happening usually in zoanthids/cnidarians. It is something related to expression of FPs, a switch(es) that are turned on and off by some unknown factor(s) (light? zoox diversity? depth? pH?). While FPs are primarily made by the host (zoanthids/cnidarians), there may be a relation with zooxanthellae. As well, the origin/evolution of different FPs is perhaps somehow linked to zooxanthellae.
However, no one knows for sure exactly HOW color changes in corals and zoanthids, and WHY it changes. It is a pretty hot topic, and even the people at the forefront of this research (I think some people at some unis in Florida are doing the most advanced work) can't say too much conclusively yet. Hope this helps.
j
Yes, a mutation CAN change phenotype, but that is not what is happening usually in zoanthids/cnidarians. It is something related to expression of FPs, a switch(es) that are turned on and off by some unknown factor(s) (light? zoox diversity? depth? pH?). While FPs are primarily made by the host (zoanthids/cnidarians), there may be a relation with zooxanthellae. As well, the origin/evolution of different FPs is perhaps somehow linked to zooxanthellae.
However, no one knows for sure exactly HOW color changes in corals and zoanthids, and WHY it changes. It is a pretty hot topic, and even the people at the forefront of this research (I think some people at some unis in Florida are doing the most advanced work) can't say too much conclusively yet. Hope this helps.
j
Reef Junkie
Premium Member
It's nice to see someone else has had a similar experience. I've been talking about alk and coral coloration for a long while now, no one seems to listen... :sad1:
Anyway, here are the pictures from James.
"Here are a couple pics of two Zoanthus kuroshio colonies growing next to each other but not merging - taken in summer 2004 on Yakushima Island, Japan."
giantbicycle
New member
Great thread..
