Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10626749#post10626749 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by amphirion
Once there was this question "Fish Rap" in Aquarium Fish Magasine that was: What is the responsability of the reefkeeping hobby towards natural coral reefs? I answered that question and my answer did appear in the February 2007 edition of the Aquarium Fish Magasine.

What I think is that our hobby isn't that much of a pain for coral reefs because I'm sure that in a few years species that are gone in the sea because of weather changes or overfishing will still thrive in our tanks because we can control temperature, flow, predation and water quality and these are some things that can we can't control in nature. Some species will be saved from extinction because some people decided to take a few specimens from the reefs and to keep them in aquariums. That's the way I see it.


And I really wanted to say something else.. Another myth: You have to quarantine EVERYTHING before putting into your main tank.

Well, I never quarantined any fish invertebrate or coral before putting into the main tank and I never saw an animal die because of that. That is the same case for all my friends. The thing to remember is to buy only healthy specimems that eats in front of your eyes at the fish store. And you should not buy a fish that just arrived at the lfs. Wait one week, them come to see it; if it's a fat healthy fish that eats and is disease free, I personally don't see the need to quarantine such fish. A one hour acclimatation to my tank has always been successful for any coral, fish or invertebrate.

What I just said on quarantine doesn't apply on fish that you buy online. These should be quarantined until you are sure they are disease free and are eating prior adding them to your display.

My 2 cents

I don't think anyone has ever said you have to quarantine everything, but you really should. Maybe you've been lucky, maybe many people you know have been lucky, but countless pests, diseases, algaes, etc. have been added to display aquariums that could have been prevented by a simple quarantine tank. That said I've never been real big on quarantine tanks for myself, and I usually get lucky, but I know I should be quarantining everything. Just because a coral or a fish appears halethy and is eating does not mean it can't intriduce something nasty to a display tank.

As to the destruction of corals reefs as a result of the aquarium hobby, it's an undeniable fact that it has happened and is happening. Like I said, there are many factors and causes besides our hobby, and perhaps certain corals would go extinct without any interference from humans. Perhaps some of those corals will still exist in aquariums for years to come. However, I don't see that as any justification for the destruction this hobby has caused.

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10626302#post10626302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
You say many corals can uptake amino acids, I say we don't fully know what corals can and can't.

Frankly, I think this makes quite evident a major weakness of a thread like this.

We don't have the specialists and those with great knowledge on this subject - and when making sweeping generalizations about the efficacy of methods, IMO ignoring those who have detailed knowledge of subjects seriously weakens any discussion.

I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO - with opinions being valued as highly as published articles by scientists in the field.

Given radio-labeled aminos were found in the corals, and given the marine biologists I've spoken with suggest that they are being taken in by the corals .... I just don't see why hobbyist opinions on whether this happens or not are relevant.

JMO, though.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10627037#post10627037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
Frankly, I think this makes quite evident a major weakness of a thread like this.

We don't have the specialists and those with great knowledge on this subject - and when making sweeping generalizations about the efficacy of methods, IMO ignoring those who have detailed knowledge of subjects seriously weakens any discussion.

I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO - with opinions being valued as highly as published articles by scientists in the field.

Given radio-labeled aminos were found in the corals, and given the marine biologists I've spoken with suggest that they are being taken in by the corals .... I just don't see why hobbyist opinions on whether this happens or not are relevant.

JMO, though.

I can see your point----but I "assumed" when Peter started this thread that it was going to be kept to simpler misconceptions--obviously not for the newbie but kind of like the middle experienced--in my own case it has taken time to develop such misguided misconceptions
This thread from about page 5 on might be better in the advanced forum where it might attract more of the writers that you would deem experts or worthy of discussing these concepts at a level acceptable to your wisdom and expertise?

I personally get enjoyment out all this---I think it is great---but I don't think all do--its becoming too technical for the middle experienced ---and doesn't have enough participation by experts to attract more experts.

Also speaking from a vary narrow scheme of things at this point in the hobby-----Guys like boomer and Bartaloni---they mentored with one of the greatest in the hobby Randy Holmes---don't you feel they are worthy of discussing at your level?
I am not insuating that you feel you are better then the rest of us---but in reality you are more experienced and knowledgeable--its reality and that's life--so my post is noway considered a criticism
the bottom line is I hope this thread goes back to basics more so I can actively participate---this is how I learn the best.
In awe of the fantastic knowledgable experienced people at Reef Escape
Sincerely
Scott

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10627037#post10627037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
Frankly, I think this makes quite evident a major weakness of a thread like this.

We don't have the specialists and those with great knowledge on this subject - and when making sweeping generalizations about the efficacy of methods, IMO ignoring those who have detailed knowledge of subjects seriously weakens any discussion.

I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO - with opinions being valued as highly as published articles by scientists in the field.

Given radio-labeled aminos were found in the corals, and given the marine biologists I've spoken with suggest that they are being taken in by the corals .... I just don't see why hobbyist opinions on whether this happens or not are relevant.

JMO, though.

My point with the statement you quoted is that we know some corals uptake amino acids, we know some don't, and we even know others produce amino acids. I don't know where you're coming from with saying I'm ignoring people with detailed knowledge of a subject. I don't see where that has been the case with this. The two guys you mentioned are more than welcome to join in on the discussion whoevere they are. I'd love to see the info they have that shows the great benefits of dosing amino acids as opposed to just supplying those amino acids through a food source.

I feel the ones that are mixing opinion and study and making the broad sweeping generalizations are the ones that are strongly promoting the use if amino acids. Simply because some (even most) corals have been shown to be capable of taking in amino acids from the water column does not mean we should be dumping them in our tank. We know so little about how much dosing amino acids would benefit a tank, we know that it's by no means a necessary thing to do, and it appears that uptake of amino acids from the water is a rather insignificant part of coral nutrition. So I don't see the harm in what you're considering a broad sweeping generalization. I'd like to add that at no point did I say people absolutely shouldn't add amino acids to their aquarium. Until someone comes out with studies that contradicts those done so far it appears that aquarium companies offering amino acids are doing nothing more than twisting scientific literature around and cashing in on the latest fad additive. Hey, something has to make up for the drop in sales from molybdenum, iodine, and strontium supplements

P.S. Let me state again, not once did I dispute that many corals are capable of taking in amino acids. Not all are capable, many are, and we simply don't know with various species that have not been studied.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10627277#post10627277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur

the bottom line is I hope this thread goes back to basics more so I can actively participate---this is how I learn the best.

Well, lets throttle it back a litle then

Misconception: Acropora is pronounced ack-row-poor-uh or something close to it.

The proper pronunciation is closer to ah-crop-O-ruh. This one is so common in the hobby that I've stopped pronouncing it properly when I talk to most hobbyists. I got tired of people looking at me like I was some sort of idiot for not knowing how to say Acropora

 

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10627037#post10627037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark

In the end, you're mixing opinion and study without discrimination IMO

I would have to agree.......unfortunately this thread has denigrated to the point that almost as much misconception is being spouted as is being disputed

It's just another "who do you believe" for those that are in the early learning stages.

JMO, Chris

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10628577#post10628577 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Well, lets throttle it back a litle then

Misconception: Acropora is pronounced ack-row-poor-uh or something close to it.

The proper pronunciation is closer to ah-crop-O-ruh. This one is so common in the hobby that I've stopped pronouncing it properly when I talk to most hobbyists. I got tired of people looking at me like I was some sort of idiot for not knowing how to say Acropora

ha ha---comeone Peter I was actually defending you and other experts on this site-----and defending the half experienced half knowledge people like my self on this site--just like us baby boomers we are getting old but we are staying in full use of our brain powers-----so we still can recognize when someone is patonizing us
IMO---learning the correct way to pronounce acropora is going to enhance my ability as a reef keeper by ?
Then I coudl be reading the post to serious ---I apologize if I have--life's to short to not laugh:rollface:

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10629080#post10629080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
ha ha---comeone Peter I was actually defending you and other experts on this site-----and defending the half experienced half knowledge people like my self on this site--just like us baby boomers we are getting old but we are staying in full use of our brain powers-----so we still can recognize when someone is patonizing us
IMO---learning the correct way to pronounce acropora is going to enhance my ability as a reef keeper by ?
Then I coudl be reading the post to serious ---I apologize if I have--life's to short to not laugh:rollface:

I know you were defending me and what I posted was not meant to be patronizing in the least. I was just trying to get back on the track of discussing things that are a little more common and less off the beaten path. I admit, not all that useful, but something I thought might be interesting to some. There are still a ton of things I say improperly so I'm hardly making fun of anyone. When you read something in a book or online over and over again and never hear anyone say it you form your own idea of how it should sound. Even after you learn you've been saying something wrong it's hard to break the habit of saying things the old way.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10628972#post10628972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
I would have to agree.......unfortunately this thread has denigrated to the point that almost as much misconception is being spouted as is being disputed

It's just another "who do you believe" for those that are in the early learning stages.

JMO, Chris

Easy to say, especially without specific references as to what misconceptions you think we're 'spouting'. Sure, this thread is about pointing out misconceptions, but it's also about debate and better understanding. So, jump in the mix, lets hear what you have a problem with...

By the way, I think you mean degenerated since you're denigrating this thread.

 

[davidryder]

:lol: This thread is fun!!!

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10627037#post10627037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark


I'd seriously suggest having this exact discussion with mcsaxmaster, mesocosm, and some other highly studied folks as IME they'd likely disagree with your statements as well.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...=8671212&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

 

[pledosophy]

Re: Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10579251#post10579251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler

3.) 75-77 degrees is a good temperature for a reef tank or tropical fish only tank.

The majority of our corals come from corals and fish come from waters that range in temperature anywhere from 76-90 degrees with average temps in the low 80's. There are certainly creatures that are an exception such as those from Japan, Australia, and deeper waters which are more usesd to temperatures a little lower.

Conclusion: The old magic 76 degree mark has little merit and I'm not sure how it ever came to be in the first place. Maintaining temperatures in the low 80's is probably most natural and will suit most fish/coral available in the industry. Thankfully this has become more accepted in recent years.

Peter I got mad love for ya but somehow I always seem to find the "exception" to the rule in your threads.

I keep my reef heater set at 78F in the summer it stays around 80 in the winter right about 78. However much like you stated that zoo's and SPS have different requirements, not all tropical marine fish will do well at a temp of 80f.

Take seahorses for example. While they can live at 80F long term keepers have reported much better long term success keeping at temps below 74F. The reason being is the affects from certain bacteria's (mainly vibrio related). The bacteria's become more virtulent at higher temperatures and actually release different proteins then they do at the lower temperatures. Keeping a tank at 74 F or below helps stop the reproduction of the more aggresive bacteria, while keeping the temp at 69F actualy stops the bacteria growth completely. Much of these finding come from Dr. Belli and can be found in the book Working Notes, 2006. Noga also has similiar findings, but I can't afford his book.

While seahorses in the wild can survive and thrive at much higher temperatures do to dillution, the same is not so in a closed system.

JME

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10579803#post10579803 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
I just keep thinking of more and more.

12.) Mariculture and aquaculture are different methods of farming corals.

Aquaculture is underwater agriculture. Mariculture is simply marine aquaculture. In the context of the hobby, since all of our animals are marine, they are synonyms. Neither one implies anything about the culture method used or where it's done.

IME mariculture has always been used to descibe culturing animals in the ocean, while aquaculture is used to describe culturing animals in a closed system, like a tank.

There have been great differences in the animals produced in these two very different types of culturing methods IME.

13.) Trading frags helps save the reefs.

Reducing the demand for wild corals may help some, but it won't make a very big dent in the amount of corals being taken from the reef. As large as it has gotten, the live coral trade is still small compared to other uses for the reef such as construction. Regardless of the demand from the hobby, there will always be more demand for corals than supply and the collectors will always need jobs. To truly reduce the amount of corals being taken, economic alternatives to harvesting from the reef have to be offered and simply cutting our demand doesn't do that. Eco-tourism and responsible aquaculture are two possibilities.

It's a start. It's what we can do. No coral in my tank came directly from the ocean, it all came as frags from a fellow reefers or stores tank. I am not the only person I know like this. The more we learn, the better we can continue this. I also by CB fish whenever available and contribute to the CB fish market myslef.

 

[davidryder]

I thought seahorses had completely different temp requirements than reef species...

 

[happyface888]

Wow this is a interesting thread, My reefer sense's are tingaling....."another thread of the month:

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10592314#post10592314 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur

Very few experienced people have been sold on their performance.

Yet every large scale facility whose systems I know use one. From public aquariums to large scale breeders.

Funny huh.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10593994#post10593994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
(72)78-85(91). Had a couple of days where i've hit almost 92, and a couple days as low as 72. No losses.No fish, no corals, nothing.

The 72 is way lower than I like to be, but the heaters come out of the tank in June, and if I have a cold night, thats what happens. The days I hit 90, were days when it was hot, humid, and I forgot to make sure the fans were plugged in.

If your saying high temps don't matter, then why do you have fans to cool the temps? Your post is contradicting itself.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10595427#post10595427 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Your sterilizer was running in line after your refugium, reducing the effectiveness of the fuge.

UV sterilizers have different flow rates intentioanlly. There is a flow rate for bacteria and a flow rate for parasites and other small organisms. The higher flow rate for bacteria will not kill small crusteceans. It is a myth. That is exactly why there are two diffrent flow rates on the box, it's not just for looks.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Re: Re: Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

Re: Re: Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10629998#post10629998 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy
Peter I got mad love for ya but somehow I always seem to find the "exception" to the rule in your threads.

I keep my reef heater set at 78F in the summer it stays around 80 in the winter right about 78. However much like you stated that zoo's and SPS have different requirements, not all tropical marine fish will do well at a temp of 80f.

Take seahorses for example. While they can live at 80F long term keepers have reported much better long term success keeping at temps below 74F. The reason being is the affects from certain bacteria's (mainly vibrio related). The bacteria's become more virtulent at higher temperatures and actually release different proteins then they do at the lower temperatures. Keeping a tank at 74 F or below helps stop the reproduction of the more aggresive bacteria, while keeping the temp at 69F actualy stops the bacteria growth completely. Much of these finding come from Dr. Belli and can be found in the book Working Notes, 2006. Noga also has similiar findings, but I can't afford his book.

While seahorses in the wild can survive and thrive at much higher temperatures do to dillution, the same is not so in a closed system.

JME

Like I said, it's not a hard and fast rule and there are exceptions. I don't know a ton about Seahorses so I'm not going to argue for or against what you're saying In short, I think it's pretty tough to argue my conclusion that most of the organisms in the average reef tank (typical clean up crews aside :lol: ) come from warmer water than what people were commonly maintaining their reef tanks at for many years.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10630012#post10630012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy
IME mariculture has always been used to descibe culturing animals in the ocean, while aquaculture is used to describe culturing animals in a closed system, like a tank.

There have been great differences in the animals produced in these two very different types of culturing methods IME.




It's a start. It's what we can do. No coral in my tank came directly from the ocean, it all came as frags from a fellow reefers or stores tank. I am not the only person I know like this. The more we learn, the better we can continue this. I also by CB fish whenever available and contribute to the CB fish market myslef.

The hobby has certainly started placing a differentiation between maricultured and aquacultured corals. I'm on the fence with this one and I've started using the terms in situ and ex situ more often. However, I'm probably saying them wrong

As for aquacultered corals, even if it doesn't help much it helps some in relation to the demand out hobby is putting on natural reefs and that's not something to disregard. Perhaps if we collect less corals for the hobby collectors will just collect more or the same amount of another industry such as the curio trade. However, I'd rather this hobby be less of the cause for the woes that natural reefs face rather than more.