MCsaxmaster
New member
Exactly, and our digestive systems are MUCH better equipped for infrequent larger meals than are most of our fish and other critters.
cj
cj
Continuous "natural" feeding
- Thread starter mxett
- Start date
JCTewks
In Memoriam
peristaltic pumps running inside a small fridge CONSTANTLY pumping food into the system. I think if you run a LARGE fuge with LOTS of macro, and a well oversized skimmer, that you could get away with weekly or bi-weekly water changes...with a bug aneough fuge and enough macro (possibly multiple, seperately lit macro fuges) you might be able to do away with the skimmer, which will keep more of the small stuff that is desirable(?) in a non photo seup for dendro's and gorgonians.
Biffer
New member
I think there may be an alternate method, with live food. Granted, this is limited to what you can culture in mass quantities, but I have been thinking about this for a while, initially with thoughts of Mandarin feeding. I've attached a rough sketch of a multi-layered culturing system I thought up when I should have working ...
1) one or two holding tanks for new SW.
2) The new sw runs through a UV sterilizer (I tried to make this as contamination proof as possible, as I've heard more problems with this issue on live culturing than anything else) There are some obvious unresolved issues with this part of the set up as the UV sterilizer would need a minimum flow.
3) The air supply goes through an intake filterbox (Again, trying to keep as many contaminates out of this as possible) which services all of the air in the culturing stations.
4) After the UV, the new SW enters a manifold that is set to drip feed (adjusted with some quick-connect valves) into continuos culture tubes of several different cultures of phyto - Nannochloropsis, Tetraselmis, Isocrysis, or whatever... which has a surge feed to the lower chamber culturing vessels. The Phyto has some fluorescent lighting on a 16/8 shcedule
5) The lower culturing vessels contain rotifers, or whateve else you want. These, again, are surge fed .. initially I had designed this to feed in to the sump right at the return pump...
So this basicaly means the rate of "feeding" would be determined essentially by the drip rate into the Phyto vessels. (the levels set for the surges would be mitigating, but it would still ultimately be set by the intial drip rate) The lower culturing vessels could be set up for whatever type of zoo you think you could culture.
this would also lend itself to what Dan was saying about daily water changes... you would need to stay on top of Salinity, and overall water level in your system, but I don't think it would be that difficult to accomplish. Again, it's only limited by what could be cultured on a continuous basis...
aw crap - I need to figure out how to change my paint shop (I know, I know... but this was done on a work computer) image to one I can post...
1) one or two holding tanks for new SW.
2) The new sw runs through a UV sterilizer (I tried to make this as contamination proof as possible, as I've heard more problems with this issue on live culturing than anything else) There are some obvious unresolved issues with this part of the set up as the UV sterilizer would need a minimum flow.
3) The air supply goes through an intake filterbox (Again, trying to keep as many contaminates out of this as possible) which services all of the air in the culturing stations.
4) After the UV, the new SW enters a manifold that is set to drip feed (adjusted with some quick-connect valves) into continuos culture tubes of several different cultures of phyto - Nannochloropsis, Tetraselmis, Isocrysis, or whatever... which has a surge feed to the lower chamber culturing vessels. The Phyto has some fluorescent lighting on a 16/8 shcedule
5) The lower culturing vessels contain rotifers, or whateve else you want. These, again, are surge fed .. initially I had designed this to feed in to the sump right at the return pump...
So this basicaly means the rate of "feeding" would be determined essentially by the drip rate into the Phyto vessels. (the levels set for the surges would be mitigating, but it would still ultimately be set by the intial drip rate) The lower culturing vessels could be set up for whatever type of zoo you think you could culture.
this would also lend itself to what Dan was saying about daily water changes... you would need to stay on top of Salinity, and overall water level in your system, but I don't think it would be that difficult to accomplish. Again, it's only limited by what could be cultured on a continuous basis...
aw crap - I need to figure out how to change my paint shop (I know, I know... but this was done on a work computer) image to one I can post...
Biffer
New member
ok, here it is. I designed this to be compartmentalized for a couple of reasons.
1) It's easier to remove individual parts for when (not if) there is some contamination and one of the cultures crash. (I've also designed them to allow for purging from the bottom of each culturing vessel for easier cleaning out of detritus and what-not)
2) Redundancy in each type of culture - you have a source to restart a culture when one crashes eventually.
Each of the culturing vessels has an air exhaust that has to have some type of filter on it, because when the surge drain happens, air will get sucked in and again, opens the door for contamination
1) It's easier to remove individual parts for when (not if) there is some contamination and one of the cultures crash. (I've also designed them to allow for purging from the bottom of each culturing vessel for easier cleaning out of detritus and what-not)
2) Redundancy in each type of culture - you have a source to restart a culture when one crashes eventually.
Each of the culturing vessels has an air exhaust that has to have some type of filter on it, because when the surge drain happens, air will get sucked in and again, opens the door for contamination
Biffer
New member
H20ENG,
the idea for that particular system came from both the "Geosapper" culturing piece, and from that long thread called "DSB heresy". I kind of tossed around the idea of daily small water changes with continuous feedings. Originally, it was (like I said before) intended to be used to culture rotifers for keeping Mandarins, but then it occured to me why not for SPS, Clams, etc... and then this thread popped up about continuous natural feedings...
Sorry my posting picutre skills aren't great - I can't seem to find a way to transfer a jpeg into something "postable". If anyone wants me to email the original image, send me a pm - it's more detailed and I have a few variations on the design.
the idea for that particular system came from both the "Geosapper" culturing piece, and from that long thread called "DSB heresy". I kind of tossed around the idea of daily small water changes with continuous feedings. Originally, it was (like I said before) intended to be used to culture rotifers for keeping Mandarins, but then it occured to me why not for SPS, Clams, etc... and then this thread popped up about continuous natural feedings...
Sorry my posting picutre skills aren't great - I can't seem to find a way to transfer a jpeg into something "postable". If anyone wants me to email the original image, send me a pm - it's more detailed and I have a few variations on the design.
Nope I think its a great addition to the thread.
I had one of those 4' x 10" x 10" segmented tanks from a pet store display system. I thought about doing multiple siphon feeders, but the contamination was too great a factor. It turned into a multi chamber refugium instead.
I like that yours are all seperate for cleaning and such.
I had one of those 4' x 10" x 10" segmented tanks from a pet store display system. I thought about doing multiple siphon feeders, but the contamination was too great a factor. It turned into a multi chamber refugium instead.
I like that yours are all seperate for cleaning and such.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Hey, your design doesn't show up on Word for a Mac. Can someone save it to a jpeg or something and repost it (or email a copy to me and I'll post it)?
Thanks!
BTW, I never quite understood the Geosapper design. It always looked to me like it would be way too much of a pain to get into the lower compartments. Much better to make it modular, IMO. I started working on one a year or so ago but made the tube for the siphon of too small a tube. The siphon couldn't break the surface tension and it wouldn't start after the first time. I don't know why I never tried again....
Thanks!
BTW, I never quite understood the Geosapper design. It always looked to me like it would be way too much of a pain to get into the lower compartments. Much better to make it modular, IMO. I started working on one a year or so ago but made the tube for the siphon of too small a tube. The siphon couldn't break the surface tension and it wouldn't start after the first time. I don't know why I never tried again....
Hey Biffer,
If you are feeding fresh saltwater into the culture containers for the microalgae, what is the microalgae feeding on? Or are you planning on dosing the saltwater with iron and other fertilizer before going through the UV sterilizer?
If you took your water from your main aquarium, and ran it through filters to remove particulate matter, and then ran it through the UV sterilizers and used a dosing pump to feed the drip rate to the micro algae cultures, you would be reusing the nutrients already in your system to feed your algae cultures.
This would also make it so you don't have to worry so much about salinity, just use the normal auto top off of pure water to account for evaporation.
I'm not sure how slow of a flow rate you would need through the UV to try and get 100% kill rate to sterilize.
I suppose you could put the dosing pump through a millipore filter that is smaller diameter than any of the algaes you are culturing before going to the UV to try and keep any algal cells from fouling your cultures.
Cheers,
Doug
If you are feeding fresh saltwater into the culture containers for the microalgae, what is the microalgae feeding on? Or are you planning on dosing the saltwater with iron and other fertilizer before going through the UV sterilizer?
If you took your water from your main aquarium, and ran it through filters to remove particulate matter, and then ran it through the UV sterilizers and used a dosing pump to feed the drip rate to the micro algae cultures, you would be reusing the nutrients already in your system to feed your algae cultures.
This would also make it so you don't have to worry so much about salinity, just use the normal auto top off of pure water to account for evaporation.
I'm not sure how slow of a flow rate you would need through the UV to try and get 100% kill rate to sterilize.
I suppose you could put the dosing pump through a millipore filter that is smaller diameter than any of the algaes you are culturing before going to the UV to try and keep any algal cells from fouling your cultures.
Cheers,
Doug
H20ENG,
Why do you think that you ended up with such a contamination problem? I was actually trying to see if I could pick up some of those store display tanks for the very reason of using them as multi chambered for doing different cultures.
If that is a lost cause I can stop cruising craig's list looking for fish stores that have gone under etc.
Cheers,
Doug
Why do you think that you ended up with such a contamination problem? I was actually trying to see if I could pick up some of those store display tanks for the very reason of using them as multi chambered for doing different cultures.
If that is a lost cause I can stop cruising craig's list looking for fish stores that have gone under etc.
Cheers,
Doug
Hi Doug,
Because the algae cultures get eaten up by "contaminates" (other species).
Once a drop of water containing phyto gets in an algae culture tank, they take over immediately. the same is true with different types of algae.
In the end, the segmented tanks are just too close together. They make great chambered refugiums though, or ATSs so dont give up on them
Because the algae cultures get eaten up by "contaminates" (other species).
Once a drop of water containing phyto gets in an algae culture tank, they take over immediately. the same is true with different types of algae.
In the end, the segmented tanks are just too close together. They make great chambered refugiums though, or ATSs so dont give up on them
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Here are the designs (thanks for sending them):
Biffer
New member
ddoering - I had thought about using the a kind of "culturing closed loop" for the culture source water. I think the reality is that the you aren't going to get a 100% kill ratio with any UV light.
Contamination hasn't been a huge problem for me, it's just that I would rather have more control over what goes into the cultures from the very beginning than hope something doesn't get through the UV light and filter screen. I was planning on low dose of fertilizer (micro grow, or some such variation) to be added to the source water. I also thought about adding a small circulation pump (an old maxijet) at the end of the manifold, sending the water back into the storage water tank - this way the UV light doesn't overheat, but all the water being fed to the cultures gets zapped by UV...
I know this means keeping a close eye on salinity and top off water, but the extra work that imposes seems worth the trade of of a more sterile medium feeding the cultures and a small water change on a daily basis.
If you guys see any holes in this, please fire away. I would rather get some good criticism than not.
Contamination hasn't been a huge problem for me, it's just that I would rather have more control over what goes into the cultures from the very beginning than hope something doesn't get through the UV light and filter screen. I was planning on low dose of fertilizer (micro grow, or some such variation) to be added to the source water. I also thought about adding a small circulation pump (an old maxijet) at the end of the manifold, sending the water back into the storage water tank - this way the UV light doesn't overheat, but all the water being fed to the cultures gets zapped by UV...
I know this means keeping a close eye on salinity and top off water, but the extra work that imposes seems worth the trade of of a more sterile medium feeding the cultures and a small water change on a daily basis.
If you guys see any holes in this, please fire away. I would rather get some good criticism than not.
jnarowe
New member
I have one concern about doing the 24/7 feeding. I have been giving this a lot of thought for some time, particularly on how to feed food with large sized pieces and keeping it chilled. I make all my own food and there is a marked health benefit, but the issue I have a hard time with, is that it's my belief that soaking it in water releases nutrients into the water. I typically soak the frozen mixture and shredded nori in tank water with vitamins, and then drain it into a fine net.
What I seem to have observed is that during a period of about 2 months, I forgot about the net and my watre quality suffred substantially. Now I know it's hard to pinpoint causitive factors in a reef, but I think there is some validity to that theory.
So how can we dose food 24/7 but leave the extra "nutrients" like PO4 and nitrate behind?
What I seem to have observed is that during a period of about 2 months, I forgot about the net and my watre quality suffred substantially. Now I know it's hard to pinpoint causitive factors in a reef, but I think there is some validity to that theory.
So how can we dose food 24/7 but leave the extra "nutrients" like PO4 and nitrate behind?
Hi Biffer,
If you are just going to use new water with fertilizer to feed the micro algae cultures, why not just buy the concentrates and drip feed them into your rotifer/pod rearing tanks?
I remember reading somebody who converted a dorm fridge specifically as the aquarium feed station, they drilled some feed line tube holes through the side of the fridge and used a dosing pump to drip feed the concentrate into well stirred rotifer/pod tanks.
You have to buy algae concentrates, but you don't have the ongoing expense for the lighting and the uv and the initial costs of the culturing tanks for the different algae strains. The iron/fertilizer is also an ongoing costs for growing your own cultures, along with the constant new saltwater you are mixing up. Basically is the ongoing cost of new concentrate cheaper than growing your own?
The dripping in of new saltwater into a system that is also losing water to evaporation is going to make it more challenging to keep salinity constant as you will have to constantly be figuring out how much freshwater you need to add in addition to the amount of saltwater you are removing to keep up with the new saltwater that is dripping in.
You can just use filtered tank water back to the copepod / rotifer tanks to control the overflow rates back to the main tank if you direct fed concentrates to the copepod/rotifers.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you should ensure you have adequate overflow protection. If you have some water source constantly adding to the total tank volume (as this new water from the feeding will do) you want to make sure your sump has the extra capacity to hold all the additional water without flooding if you have some failure in your feed setup. Say a valve gives loose and drains out into your main tank, or you have some power outtage, or you simply forget about the drip feeding for a while and it drains into your tank, make sure you have calculated in the extra capacity your sump needs.
Y
If you are just going to use new water with fertilizer to feed the micro algae cultures, why not just buy the concentrates and drip feed them into your rotifer/pod rearing tanks?
I remember reading somebody who converted a dorm fridge specifically as the aquarium feed station, they drilled some feed line tube holes through the side of the fridge and used a dosing pump to drip feed the concentrate into well stirred rotifer/pod tanks.
You have to buy algae concentrates, but you don't have the ongoing expense for the lighting and the uv and the initial costs of the culturing tanks for the different algae strains. The iron/fertilizer is also an ongoing costs for growing your own cultures, along with the constant new saltwater you are mixing up. Basically is the ongoing cost of new concentrate cheaper than growing your own?
The dripping in of new saltwater into a system that is also losing water to evaporation is going to make it more challenging to keep salinity constant as you will have to constantly be figuring out how much freshwater you need to add in addition to the amount of saltwater you are removing to keep up with the new saltwater that is dripping in.
You can just use filtered tank water back to the copepod / rotifer tanks to control the overflow rates back to the main tank if you direct fed concentrates to the copepod/rotifers.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you should ensure you have adequate overflow protection. If you have some water source constantly adding to the total tank volume (as this new water from the feeding will do) you want to make sure your sump has the extra capacity to hold all the additional water without flooding if you have some failure in your feed setup. Say a valve gives loose and drains out into your main tank, or you have some power outtage, or you simply forget about the drip feeding for a while and it drains into your tank, make sure you have calculated in the extra capacity your sump needs.
Y
