Copper Tank - can it ever be safe?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I just evaluated a tank in a local elementary school. The quick story is that the LFS is maintaining it and poorly.

It is a 300 Gallon Acrylic tank with a 35 gallon sump w/bio-balls, and 3 fish: a Clarkii Clown, a Bicolor Foxface, and a Blue Tang w/HLLE. Here's some pics:

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Here are the water parameters:

Time 12:30 pm : Lights on
Temp 73.5 (Hanna Meter)
Salinity 30 (Refractometer)
SG 1.023 (Refractometer)
pH 7.84 (Hanna Meter)
KH 6.0-6.4 (Salifert)
Ammonia 0 (API)
Nitrite 0.01-0.025 (Salifert)
Nitrate 200-250 (API - diluted 10:1 was about 20 ppm and 20:1 was 10-15 ppm)
Phosphate 10 ppm (API - diluted 10:1 and 20:1 confirmed it)
Copper 0 ppm (API) 0.5-1.0 (Salifert after 10 minutes, 20 minutes was same)
Silicate 1-2 ppm (Seachem - hard to test)
Iron 0 (Seachem)

So it looks to me like the LFS is using Copper as a preventative so he doesn't have to fix the Nitrates and Phosphates, deal with algae, or sick and dying fish.

I've heard you can't get all the Copper out and any trace will kill inverts. Is this true?

One person said they "heard" that it will dissipate in about a year?

It was also suggested to me that I could polish the inside of the tank like you would to remove scratches, and that would take a thin layer of acrylic off and reduce the Copper leeching. I've removed scratches before using a drill and a wheel and acrylic polish after sanding out deep scratches, so while it seems like a good idea, I really could use some input here. Any truth or weight to this idea?

 

[flyingace2005]

Floyd, What LFS was "maintaining" it? That is terrible.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Adam's aquatics. 'nuff said. Like to see another local on here!

 

[Mandragen]

I also would like to know about copper and tanks. I am treating a some fish in a glass QT tank with a bit of copper, wanted to know if that tank would ever be able to hold coral/inverts.

As far as that tank there, that's sad. I would definately make sure people know that a LFS is doing that.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

The local reef society knows. Adam considers us "the enemy". Also I talked to a guy who used to maintain 60 tanks at one point and he said his response to finding out that Adam maintains their tanks was "I'll be right over"

 

[jefathome]

Holy Salt Creep Batman!!

 

[Mandragen]

Forget the salt creep, check out all those blue balls! ouch!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Holy Salt Creep Batman!!

Yeah, wanna take a guess on how long it's been since the salt creep was removed? I mean, really! How long does it take for creep to build up to 3/4" thick???

Plus, the jets are 4" below the surface, which is 60x36, so if the backflow preventers failed (which I'm sure they would, I've worked on a similar setup) over 35 gallons would backflow into a 38 gallon sump. I wonder if that's what the streaks down the side are from. Thankfully there's a floor drain.

 

[Sk8r]

I'd rescue the fish, take the tank down, clean it with vinegar, and start over, honestly: probably far less work.

As for the question about copper: if you run the tank without life but WITH the heater and other systems going (to keep it warm enough for normal chemistry), with some Polyfilter in it, it will sop up any copper as it comes into solution. I'm not sure how long it would take, but probably a month would do it unless it's just a major mess, then maybe 3 months. It can also work with living things in the tank, but since Polyfilter also grabs organics, which turn it black, you can't see the copper (blue) stain except on a brand new piece and you can't tell how far you are. Polyfilter is pricey stuff. But good.

 

[Yogre]

That's really a shame, the way that tank has been maintained. :sad2:

As far as the copper goes, it definitely will not just dissipate, it must be actively removed. It will have adsorbed onto the surface of the porous rock, and the sand.

Polyfilter will remove copper from the water column. You most likely will have to remove the decor and the sand. To be sure the copper has been removed from the tank structure itself, I'd take the tank down and give it an acid wash.

Lots of work, and some money to be spent to keep inverts in that tank I would say.

Also, you can't use a copper test kit to tell whether you've gotten all the copper out. Hobby-grade test kits are meant to tell you if you've reached a therapeutic dose for fish treatment. Amounts less than the kit will detect can still be harmful to inverts.

 

[Mandragen]

So if you have treated a tank with copper, barebottom no sand or rocks just the tank, the heater, the HOB filter, and some pvc for hiding then all of that is no longer usable for inverts and coral? Unless, as stated, poly filter and all that jazz? I just want to make sure I understand completely.

 

[Lockhartia]

I have a 75ga Quarantine in my basement. It has been nuked with copper maybe 5-6 times. At one point between dosings the tank did have a spillover from another tank rock loaded with mushrooms, snails and hermits. A new tang had ick so I had to dose again and I noticed something interesting.

The snails died almost immediately, but the hermit crabs survived the copper with flying colors. Long term as well, as the last dosing was well over a year ago now and I still have them and none have been replaced. The mushroom rock also did just fine. The mushrooms were very upset for about a week, but after that opened up like nothing had happened.

I've cautiously added some Zoanthids and they are doing just fantastic.

Will I turn this into a full reef tank? No, but I was surprised that everything except the snails did so well!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'd rescue the fish, take the tank down, clean it with vinegar, and start over, honestly: probably far less work.

Probably the safest route too. I might find some local reefers to take the fish. Might donate the Blue Tang to the Des Moines school district, they have a 20,000 gallon system in their marine biology department and a classroom with about a dozen quarantine tanks with HLLE fish in them for studying treatment options.

As for the question about copper: if you run the tank without life but WITH the heater and other systems going (to keep it warm enough for normal chemistry), with some Polyfilter in it, it will sop up any copper as it comes into solution. I'm not sure how long it would take, but probably a month would do it unless it's just a major mess, then maybe 3 months. It can also work with living things in the tank, but since Polyfilter also grabs organics, which turn it black, you can't see the copper (blue) stain except on a brand new piece and you can't tell how far you are. Polyfilter is pricey stuff. But good.

Is this what you're referring to?

http://www.petdiscounters.com/Aqua-Pure-Polyfiber-Pad-p2175.html

I didn't think it would be that simple to removed copper - I thought it would need something more absorbent. There was also a large square black pad (about 1" thick) behind the sump (you can see it in the pics of the sump and pumps) I wonder if that's a carbon pad. Doesn't look used however.

As far as the copper goes, it definitely will not just dissipate, it must be actively removed. It will have adsorbed onto the surface of the porous rock, and the sand.

Yes at a minimum I plan to remove all the substrate, decor, replace the tubing, possibly the bulkheads and the locline jets (unless I can clean them up adequately) and clean the pumps.

Polyfilter will remove copper from the water column. You most likely will have to remove the decor and the sand. To be sure the copper has been removed from the tank structure itself, I'd take the tank down and give it an acid wash.

So acid will remove the copper? Will that damage the acrylic? What about vinegar as suggested earlier?

Lots of work, and some money to be spent to keep inverts in that tank I would say.

Since it's in a school, I think they should have a full-blown system with ever form of life possible, and use it as an educational tool. Why have a boring FO tank like that in that kind of place? That's my viewpoint, so I'd like to make it invert safe, it's worth the extra work (to me, at least)

Also, you can't use a copper test kit to tell whether you've gotten all the copper out. Hobby-grade test kits are meant to tell you if you've reached a therapeutic dose for fish treatment. Amounts less than the kit will detect can still be harmful to inverts.

I figured that was probably the case. Maybe a lab will be able to detect it.

I have a 75ga Quarantine in my basement. It has been nuked with copper maybe 5-6 times. At one point between dosings the tank did have a spillover from another tank rock loaded with mushrooms, snails and hermits. A new tang had ick so I had to dose again and I noticed something interesting.

The snails died almost immediately, but the hermit crabs survived the copper with flying colors. Long term as well, as the last dosing was well over a year ago now and I still have them and none have been replaced. The mushroom rock also did just fine. The mushrooms were very upset for about a week, but after that opened up like nothing had happened.

I've cautiously added some Zoanthids and they are doing just fantastic.

Will I turn this into a full reef tank? No, but I was surprised that everything except the snails did so well!

Good to hear! So the your copper tank ended up contaminating your non-copper tank, is that right? Have you re-introduced snails again and have they survived? How long ago was this?

 

[Yogre]

I would say that vinegar is plenty acidic to get the job done for you.

This is Polyfilter:

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4335

Works great to remove copper. A little spendy, but worth it for what you want to do.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah, that is spendy, but looks like it would knock down the Phosphates also.

Would activated carbon do the job also? Would it work slower? I'm thinking 2x 30% PWCs first either way. Trying to avoid completely emptying the tank if at all possible, but it's sounding like that might be the best option...

 

[Yogre]

Carbon will remove Cupramine, but I don't know about any other form of copper. I kinda doubt it.

I do agree that taking the tank down for a good cleaning might be your best option.

 

[Mandragen]

The tank I am treating is with cupramine, does that make a difference whether or not the tank can be reused?

 

[Yogre]

According to Seachem, Cupramine can be removed from the water column with activated carbon. I really don't know whether aquarium silicone can absorb and then release enough copper to be harmful to inverts if you use the tank for a reef down the road. I wouldn't think your plumbing and other surfaces would absorb much copper at all.

I'd suggest posting a question about this in the Reef Chemistry forum. There are some really sharp folks that frequent that forum.

 

[Mandragen]

Great idea, I'm newer to RC so thanks for the advice!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

In case anyone is interested, there's a thread that answers a lot of questions about Cupramine under Reef Chemistry here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1935835

and I posted a link back to this thread. Hopefully I will get insight on what to do with an acrylic system, but it sounds like wiping down well with vinegar will remove any bound copper from glass. As for silicone, that's addressed also...