Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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As a large part of our country is below sealevel, we of course don't have a choice! :spin1: If I would tell that my actual job is teaching biology on a high school, our labour policies would appear even more progressive, I assume ;)

Yes, very hands on for a biology teacher. You certainly aren't afraid of getting your feet wet. In Canada we shave the worker's heads and take their shoes away before we lock them in the tanks. It makes it harder for them to escape and easier to spot in the general population for recapture. We use smaller tanks to keep the males away from the females :)
 

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No Rob, Mr. Wilson is going to write the book. He is the best equiped in every sense to get the job done and well I might add!!! So Mr. Wilson you now have two pre-orders for your new book. When can we expect delivery????

Peter

I just have to get a new ribbon for my Underwood, a smoking jacket, and a big dog to lay at my feet.
 
Peter, thought I would share what my students have been up to since I put some of them on to reading here. The students that have dug as far through as I have and came across the mangroves pages. After a lot of talk and reading as much of Anthony Calfo as we could find, we decided to add mangroves to our reef system.
We wrote a grant proposal that would allow us to dust off our 240 and create three large clumps of trees.
the tank will be down hill of the reef and get a fair amount of the drain water before it goes on to the sump.

Lots of fun projects can be done with the tree habitat. Chem change monitoring of water pre and post contact water, monitoring the epiphyte growth on the root masses, and fun fish breeding can go in among the great hiding places. Wish us luck and we can't wait to see your tank stocked up.

Keep up the amazing quality of the thread

your pal
Briney
 
Peter, thought I would share what my students have been up to since I put some of them on to reading here. The students that have dug as far through as I have and came across the mangroves pages. After a lot of talk and reading as much of Anthony Calfo as we could find, we decided to add mangroves to our reef system.
We wrote a grant proposal that would allow us to dust off our 240 and create three large clumps of trees.
the tank will be down hill of the reef and get a fair amount of the drain water before it goes on to the sump.

Lots of fun projects can be done with the tree habitat. Chem change monitoring of water pre and post contact water, monitoring the epiphyte growth on the root masses, and fun fish breeding can go in among the great hiding places. Wish us luck and we can't wait to see your tank stocked up.

Keep up the amazing quality of the thread

your pal
Briney

Briney that's great news. I have a bunch of questions that your students may want to answer regarding the mangrove project.

I think I'm going to be doing something very similar. One of the members of our thread has about 200 which I will probably offer to buy. I think I will plant them in Miracle Mud. The mud will probably be about 12" deep. What variety of mangrove pods are your students considering. What kind of light and what will the likely cycle be? What will the flow be and how will they control it? Will they add any nutrients to help the growth of the plants? I assume your students will establish a water analysis baseline before they add the plants. I would be very interested in which elements they will focus on and I will try and match their methodology to see what if any differences there might be.

I think its terrific that the kids would try something like this. They are welcome to post any observations or questions in this thread. I'm sure Mr. Wilson's reading lists will keep them out of trouble and definitely sleep deprived.

Meanwhile I am waiting for my second chiller to arrive and then I will be ready to wet test the tank and servicing systems by the beginning of next week. I will then be filling the display tank with salt water and barring anything weird Live rock.

Thanks for the support.

Peter
 
About 20 pages back or so we discussed the use of Mangroves, i have over 200 pieces and am willing to sell some to this great group. PM me if you are interested. Let me know how many you want. I can even ship them to you.

Do you know the variety? I assume I can plant them in the miracle mud? Any advice on the care and management????? I'll probabbly take however many you have available.

Peter
 
Actually Mr. Wilson (I think I am now going to refer to you in this forum as Mr. Wilson all the time as I think I have misspelled your first name too many times!!!....for that I apologize), I think a book is long overdue and now might be the time to do it. You are right, its either "Fish Tanks for Dummies", or "Empirical Studies on the Transplanted Lionfish and its Impact on the Caribbean Marine Ecology".

The discipline that Chingchai followed in his build should be written up. I know its difficult to encourage anyone to wade through a couple of hundred pages to benefit from the experience and process as it gets enunciated in a typical forum format. There is a huge benefit to encourage and even discover a formal process that minimizes risk of failure and greatly enhances the likelihood of achieving a desired managed outcome. I have to admire the majority of members, and even silent lurkers who are here just to learn. What a powerful asset to this hobby when this culture is the dominant one that holds it together. OK OK there are one or two voyeurs out there but I will let you dwell on that point. Just add my voice to the growing chorus of support for a book about this hobby that carries current real world experience with no other agenda other that to help improve the statistics for success and enjoyment for our efforts.

The time is now Mr. Wilson....the time is now.

Peter

+1 I think a book of this type is well ovedue.
 
Briney that's great news. I have a bunch of questions that your students may want to answer regarding the mangrove project.

I think I'm going to be doing something very similar. One of the members of our thread has about 200 which I will probably offer to buy. I think I will plant them in Miracle Mud. The mud will probably be about 12" deep. What variety of mangrove pods are your students considering. What kind of light and what will the likely cycle be? What will the flow be and how will they control it? Will they add any nutrients to help the growth of the plants? I assume your students will establish a water analysis baseline before they add the plants. I would be very interested in which elements they will focus on and I will try and match their methodology to see what if any differences there might be.

I think its terrific that the kids would try something like this. They are welcome to post any observations or questions in this thread. I'm sure Mr. Wilson's reading lists will keep them out of trouble and definitely sleep deprived.

Meanwhile I am waiting for my second chiller to arrive and then I will be ready to wet test the tank and servicing systems by the beginning of next week. I will then be filling the display tank with salt water and barring anything weird Live rock.

Thanks for the support.

Peter

The red mangroves sound like the one to use in direct saltwater. We have not settled on substrate type or depth yet. I am mulling around the idea of usings three different methods. One would be the mud, a second basic reef sand, and third: free rooted in just water.

As for lighting: We have a spare twin m/h 400 and thought we would t-5 off-set to the sides to power algae that want to grow along the root tangles if needed.

I would not opt for that much lighting but we already have it so that is what we are using

I will start with a ten hour cycle. I think it would make more sense to run the lights counter to the reef lighting but since the tanks are in an L to each other I would get spilled light into the other and don't want that more than the benifit of running on the opposite schedule would give

flow will be rather crude. the drain line from the reef will come in on the far end. The flow will be rather slow.
I think that we will need to run a couple controlable dc pumps (likely tunze) to pulse backward against the incoming flow to break up the smooth incoming flow.

I hope that we end up having to add a little bit of nutrients to keep the trees healthy. This would mean that the system is very low in waste nutrients

I know the students were focusing their water quality testing on waste nutrients. However, it would make sense and be interesting to expand to Ca+(with dKh and alk) Mg+, pH, We are a public school club and raise all of our own funds so testing will not be at a full blown research level. single test of each once per week from the incoming and exit water will likely be our limit (assuming we win our grant !)
and yes we intend to test the reef drain water alone every day at the same time for a couple weeks prior to adding the trees to establish some sort of comparable base

to avoid clutttering Peter's thread all are welcome to just pm me thoughts or suggestions

I don't think any of us have run down too many of the links yet. We have read all of yours and Ching's threads and that alone was a fair amount of work as finals are going on this coming week. got to save something for summer LOL
 
Do you know the variety? I assume I can plant them in the miracle mud? Any advice on the care and management????? I'll probabbly take however many you have available.

Peter

peter
mangroves do require maintenance.
you can float them with styrofoam,where the roots are exposed and they do quite well,also they do well in miracle mud but i find that they do fine in sugar sized sand.
they must be misted with R/O water daily,also i find that clipping the tips of the leaves makes the plant stronger,for the lighting, it doesnt have to be high powered like the main display.

vic
 
The red mangroves sound like the one to use in direct saltwater. We have not settled on substrate type or depth yet. I am mulling around the idea of usings three different methods. One would be the mud, a second basic reef sand, and third: free rooted in just water.

As for lighting: We have a spare twin m/h 400 and thought we would t-5 off-set to the sides to power algae that want to grow along the root tangles if needed.

I would not opt for that much lighting but we already have it so that is what we are using

I will start with a ten hour cycle. I think it would make more sense to run the lights counter to the reef lighting but since the tanks are in an L to each other I would get spilled light into the other and don't want that more than the benifit of running on the opposite schedule would give

flow will be rather crude. the drain line from the reef will come in on the far end. The flow will be rather slow.
I think that we will need to run a couple controlable dc pumps (likely tunze) to pulse backward against the incoming flow to break up the smooth incoming flow.

I hope that we end up having to add a little bit of nutrients to keep the trees healthy. This would mean that the system is very low in waste nutrients

I know the students were focusing their water quality testing on waste nutrients. However, it would make sense and be interesting to expand to Ca+(with dKh and alk) Mg+, pH, We are a public school club and raise all of our own funds so testing will not be at a full blown research level. single test of each once per week from the incoming and exit water will likely be our limit (assuming we win our grant !)
and yes we intend to test the reef drain water alone every day at the same time for a couple weeks prior to adding the trees to establish some sort of comparable base

to avoid clutttering Peter's thread all are welcome to just pm me thoughts or suggestions

I don't think any of us have run down too many of the links yet. We have read all of yours and Ching's threads and that alone was a fair amount of work as finals are going on this coming week. got to save something for summer LOL

your on the right track here with the mangroves,6 inches should suffice actually ive grown them in 4 inches under a powercompact bulb

vic
 
peter
mangroves do require maintenance.
you can float them with styrofoam,where the roots are exposed and they do quite well,also they do well in miracle mud but i find that they do fine in sugar sized sand.
they must be misted with R/O water daily,also i find that clipping the tips of the leaves makes the plant stronger,for the lighting, it doesnt have to be high powered like the main display.

vic

Thanks Vic, I'm putting in miracle mud so I figure this can do no harm and might even do some good!

Peter
 
Although it would not be a true comparision as the groups will not be in identical conditions but rather in a line with each other but having different substrates in the same tank can shed at least some conversational light on which is type is best for use in an aquarium
 
Do you know the variety? I assume I can plant them in the miracle mud? Any advice on the care and management????? I'll probabbly take however many you have available.

Peter

Peter,
They are the red mangroves. Let me know exactly how many you want. If you want more than i have left as many people have been asking for them at such a cheap Price. I will order more. Sea u Marine wants 20 dollars a piece. I can do 75% better and if u want a lot i can see what we can do.

I would keep them in either miracle mud or sugar sized sand (oolite) and under a light source such as daytime T5 or spiral florescent bulbs but knowing you . You like the classy lookT5s would would well. One important note, it is good to spray the leaves with RO water once every 2 days with a spray bottle.

Send me a PM if you want the mangroves, just in case i miss a post here by accident
Rob
 
lol well it seems that all ur questions were answered before i could get to them.. At least one thing is for sure, the great wealth of knowledge seems to be consistent so that is a good sign

Rob
 
If you grow mangroves without any substrate the root system will continue to grow, stealing energy from the rest of the plant above water. Mangroves, like any plant, need to be potted in a suitable sized pot so root growth can be limited so more leaves and branches can develop. The size of the plant is dictated by the size of the root system. If you restrict the roots growing room too much the plant will be stunted.

Mangroves should be grown with 6500K metal halide lighting. This will provide the intensity and coverage they need. 175 watts will suffice, unless you are growing a lot of them with a higher wattage (250 or 400 watt) metal halide fixture mounted higher above the trees.

Mangroves don't require salt to grow and will actually do better in soil with freshwater. I like to grow them in soil outdoors in the summer. Mangroves cannot compete with terrestrial plants surrounding the estuaries (mangrove swamps) they are found in possibly due to their slow growth rate. They have evolved to be tolerant to saltwater so they can live in marine environments where there is no competition.

Mangroves excrete salt through their leaves so they need to be sprayed with freshwater daily and perhaps wiped. Nature takes care of this job with morning dew and rain. A daily spray will also humidify the air, as they come from a humid environment. Dry air, particularly in our homes during winter, dries out the leaves. Mangrove leaves are shiny due to a protective coating that seals in humidity. A dry room will cause the mangrove to loose some of the water that it works so hard to extract from saltwater.

Mangroves grown in saltwater use magnesium to force/pump sodium salts out through their leaves. If grown in freshwater or soil, they do not require magnesium. Bioavailable magnesium can be supplied via dolomite gravel which is calcium magnesium carbonate. As the chemical name would suggest, it adds the three main elements that reefs require supplementing - calcium magnesium and carbonates (KH). Localized acidity caused by bacteria in the dolomite will slowly dissolve it and make it bioavailable to the tree. Otherwise having a magnesium level of 1300-1500 in the system water is sufficient. If they don't get enough magnesium they experience yellow or shriveled leaves. Growth of the plant and subsequent nutrient uptake will be limited if the magnesium level drops significantly.

If you want to experiment you could add pelletized sulfur to the dolomite for a passive sulfur denitrification filter. Sulfur filters/reactors encourage an acidic environment by feeding denitrifying bacteria. This would create a passive calcium reactor, slightly raise carbonate hardness (KH/alkalinity), and moderately raise magnesium. The added bonus is denitrification (lowering nitrate). You can read up on sulfur denitrification here http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288082 I'm suggesting a scaled down version of the reactors discussed in the thread so dissolution rates will be only marginal in comparison. The Ph will be nowhere near as low as with a calcium reactor (7.7 vs. 6.5 PH). You need to use a 99.9% pure sulfur pellet and not the 90% pure sulfur pellets used in agriculture that are designed to dissolve quickly. The agriculture pellets turn to mush quickly. The effluent (out going) water from the mangrove tank should pass through a granular ferric oxide (GFO) reactor as the iron will react with any residual hydrogen sulfide that forms, converting it to a less toxic form of sulfur.

The amount of nitrogen and phosphorus in reef aquariums is more than enough to supply the mangrove with what it requires for growth. One of the chief limiting factors that you will experience with mangroves grown in a reef system is carbon dioxide (Co2). If you really wanted to encourage growth, you could add a second line from your Co2 tank (for your calcium reactor) and put it on a timer and solenoid to dose Co2 every few hours during the day. Mangroves have pores on the undersides of the leaves called stomata that breath in Co2 and breath out o2 during photosynthesis. Aiming a circulation fan at the mangroves will also provide more Co2 to the leaves. A classroom full of kids is more than enough Co2. Even urban (high) vs. suburban (moderate) vs. rural (low) ambient Co2 levels will effect how well the plant can grow.

Most plants require well oxygenated soil or substrate, but mangroves have evolved in oxygen-poor (anaerobic) soil so they don't need water movement through the root zone. Black mangroves in particular have snorkel roots that are spongy so they can draw oxygen from the surface and deliver it to the root mass. A flow-through substrate with more oxygen (aeroponics) will not provide any benefit to mangroves.

The bark surface above the water is rough and brown, while below the surface it is shiny and bright green. You can lower the water level or raise the tree/pod to simulate a dry season or low tide. By doing this, you encourage the tree to send out prop roots (air roots) as the roots stretch down for more water. Red mangroves have the nicest prop roots. If you leave the mangroves in one static position, they will not develop the prop roots and character they are famous for.

You can trim mangrove trees like bonsai and even bend them with wire to shape them. By pinching off the top leaves occasionally you send growth hormones down to the lower levels of the pod/tree so new branches and leaves start. Bending the top of the plant down a few inches also transfers growth hormones from the top to the lower parts of the plant. This adds new growth to lower areas without compromising (cutting) the top.

Mangroves are slow growers even in the best conditions. You can expect one or two leaves a month growth per plant which will yield a modest dry weight in nutrient uptake. mangroves do not add oxygen to the water as their photosynthesis is independent of what goes on underwater.

You could add some anableps, archer fish, mudskippers, cardinals or fiddler crabs to complete a mangrove estuary theme. An ebb and flow system that raises and lowers the water level in a cycle would also be interesting. If you were short on space you could grow a vertical wall of mangroves but you would have to use a slow flow system to minimize salt creep.
 
mr. Wilson, thanks for the knowledge, we will be sure to add both your comments and link to our background study files to pour over before we settle on a final design and exact nature of our projects
 
Mr. Wilson you should really get started on that book! Put me on the pre-order list. :)

Peter, I don't remember if this has been mentioned already, but are there any plans for remote viewing (webcams)? You may need several as all the viewers in this thread fight to gain control of the camera.

There was a thread a while back about a large tank at a game development company that had a plastic bubble in the top of the tank to hold a camera. The camera swiveled 360 degrees and gave a fish-eye view of the tank. It was pretty neat. They had to be diligent about keeping the camera housing clean though otherwise the camera was cloudy, so it would have to be added to your maintenance list. Just something to consider! Here's the link:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13163340&postcount=780
 
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