Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[nineball]

what a lovely set-up, love the teeth i look foreward to following this thread!

I had the pleasure of meeting you at MACNA, well actually at the brazillian steakhouse (i sat across from you, i was with the profilux party), nice to put a forum name to the face

Thank you MegsB. The teeth ideas belong to Jamie Grimm who spent farrrr too much time in the tank.

It was a very enjoyable evening for me. I very much enjoyed meeting everyone, especially Ron Harel. He had a wonderful sense of humour. He also knew a lot about salt!!!

Peter

 

[kharmaguru]

We have a number of lighting configurations over the tank at the moment and have not arrived at a final solution yet. We have plasma, LED, 150 HID, 250 HID and 400 HID. The plasma is waaaay too yellow for my taste. Apparently you can dim them with a controller to add more blue but we highly suspect the PAR values to drop too much. I bought three which we will use in the fish room for the plant growth in the Mangrove wall units and possibly the cheto in the refugium. The LED is the noisiest lighting fixture with the sound of crickets. The colour of the light is good but it has a very small footprint and the PAR looks like it will be too low for the coral. I like the HID 250 and we have yet to give it a disciplined measurement with the PAR meter. The lights are 20K which is very blue and we suspect limits the PAR value as well. We are thinking of getting 14K bulbs to see the difference. The 150 HID's I had from the beginning are 10K white lights and by all accounts looks favourable for PAR but the colour is very white. The 400 HID is white but looks slightly yellow and it doesn't have actinics like the other cases do.


This is going to be a very demanding decision to make. :reading::reading::reading:

Peter

It looks like you already decided:

plasma - no, colour
LED - no, noise, intensity, coverage
Halide -yes.

You obviously like blue over crisp white or yellow, and you are concerned about PAR values, so 250 or 400W 14K will probably be the ones you like. Even though we could all try and match colour temperature to the depth at which our animals came from, the truth is most of us have mixed reefs and the animals will adjust to whatever light energy you give them (within reason). So really it comes down to what "looks" best to YOU!

 

[nineball]

I remember the same article, yet I see noticeable differences between skimmers. I just switched from a spray injection to a cone needle wheel and ther is a remarkable difference in water clarity. I as run a dual bucket recirculator on my large system which I perceive to be better than the spray injection it replaced. I can't quantify my observations though. Just observations.

I'm not sure if this topic has been covered yet in this thread. I don't remember it. Peter, what kind of salt are you using on your system? I just switched from instant ocean to D&D and I've noticed a dramatic difference. I used IO for many years with few problems, but the new salt really added some luster to my tanks.

I recently also received some stats from the analysis of the top tier salts and there are some significant difference b/w them. This may turn out to be another controversial topic.

This salt subject has been discussed at some length in this thread. I was using Instant Ocean and I switched to Reef Crystals. It was a difficult subject because there is so much debate but I chose Reef Crystals because it was the brand that seemed to garner the fewest number of negative comments. Not always the best methodology for decisionmaking but it made sense for me at the time. The only concrete negative I have recieved has come from someone who is a competitor which doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate concern its just that the end users of the product were by in large satisfied with it. For the moment I am going to stay with my choice and will probably revisit it in the medium term.

Peter

 

[nineball]

It looks like you already decided:

plasma - no, colour
LED - no, noise, intensity, coverage
Halide -yes.

You obviously like blue over crisp white or yellow, and you are concerned about PAR values, so 250 or 400W 14K will probably be the ones you like. Even though we could all try and match colour temperature to the depth at which our animals came from, the truth is most of us have mixed reefs and the animals will adjust to whatever light energy you give them (within reason). So really it comes down to what "looks" best to YOU!

Actually we really haven't decided yet. What you have gathered here are the rough notes without any real analysis yet. This is very much in keeping with the policy of sharing information 'warts and all' as it is being developed. I would like to examine LED's more thoroughly and possible hybrids. I had the good fortune of meeting a knowledgeable light engineer on the first day of MACNA and I was seriously impressed with his honesty and forthrightness. He said that LED's were NOT the total answer for everything yet........but we are really close now. It was clear that there will come a time when it will be foolish to consider anything else but more money and time is needed to move this issue further. This is the kind of honesty this industry needs more than ever. I may have to make an interim decision soon or I will never get any corals wet in this tank.

Peter

 

[nineball]

sure now you say this all.... I just spent thousands on my skimmers, sump etc.

Keep this topic going and explain what you mean by other filtration methods, I would be very curious to read about that

You guys are terrible......someone mentions Tesla and you are selling your Season's Tickets to NASCAR. Everything in balance kids, everything in balance!

Peter

 

[dainiusiva]

Everything in balance is a good attitude. Searching for something new is better. Receiving guidance by mr.wilson is also helping to minimise the risk of failure. We should not judge someone who is excited about learning something new and perhaps when accumulated knowledge is enough and the time is right is going to give it a try.

 

[Mangodude]

shawn or anyone else

i was just spreard by a longspine black seaurchin,i dont think i was stung,as i only felt the pain.
the skin was penetrated as there was blood,so i squueazed more blood,i then put my hand under running hot water till i could not take it anymore.
then washed my hands under dish soap.then poured rubbing alcohol on the wound,its not bleeding but throbbing,i do blieve the stingers are not the spines.
i have done this procedure for anenome stings,but not sure of sea urchin

thanks

vic

I have been "stung" by a long-spine too. I agree, getting poked by one and bleeding is not the same as getting stung. I'm not really sure if all urchins can sting.. I stepped on one and only got a foot-full of spines. No poison. Perhaps the poison only comes out if the urchin is trying to sting you (ie. not accidental)

Peter, pictures of anything is always welcome! :lol: Have you bought any more fish?

Thanks,

Eric

 

[jahorgos]

Actually we really haven't decided yet. What you have gathered here are the rough notes without any real analysis yet. This is very much in keeping with the policy of sharing information 'warts and all' as it is being developed. I would like to examine LED's more thoroughly and possible hybrids. I had the good fortune of meeting a knowledgeable light engineer on the first day of MACNA and I was seriously impressed with his honesty and forthrightness. He said that LED's were NOT the total answer for everything yet........but we are really close now. It was clear that there will come a time when it will be foolish to consider anything else but more money and time is needed to move this issue further. This is the kind of honesty this industry needs more than ever. I may have to make an interim decision soon or I will never get any corals wet in this tank.

Peter

I would think halides are the best bet for this build as far as coral choice, replacement feasability and not to mention you do get shimmer. I wouldn't think you would want t5s because there would be a billion of them and as you said LEDs just aren't going to cut it for coral choice. They have those hexagon halide pendants that seem to give the best coverage for large tanks such as yours.

Congrats on the build and being from the motor city I truly enjoyed your eye candy in the earlier posts. My favorite car is the lambo...maybe if I work hard enough I might be able to afford one when I am older...probably have to ditch the engineering job first though FYI I worked over in the ford oakville plant for about 3 months where they currently build the Edge/MKX which use to be home to the death star...I mean freestar.

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

as you said LEDs just aren't going to cut it for coral choice.

To be fair, I don't beleive that's an accurate reflection of Peter's comment regarding LEDs. Many early adopters of LEDs (myself included) are struggling to reproduce the best coloration obtained previously by MH/T5s (specifically, some reds are very difficult.) IMHO, we're about 95% there and it won't be long until the missing spectral spike is identified and accounted for by simply swapping out a few LEDs.

The quest for perfect coloration aside, when considering all other aspects (massive PAR, growth rates, thermal and electrical efficiency, compact size, 10+ year bulb life, "greenness", dimming, variable optics supporting multiple mounting options...) LED's are well ahead and I believe they will eventually represent the bulk of reef lighting - at least until Plasma coloration issues are resolved.

To support my point, all one had to do was observe what lighting technologies took center stage at MACNA. I saw no "game-changing" advances in MH, T5 or Plasma (save perhaps the 95 watt VHOs which unfortunately did not survive shipping.) LEDs were quite simply everywhere.

While LEDs may or may not currently represent the optimal choice for Peters tank, there are thousands of reefers proving that LED illumination can definitely "cut it" when it comes to growing all types of coral.

 

[kharmaguru]

I think LED's are an awesome idea and there's even a thread in DIY forum where a fellow brings it into the realm of affordability/value. If I had the resources for Peter's type of build, I'm pretty sure LED would be what I would look into - the longevity alone would be a maintenance saver on a tank that size. I had never heard they were noisy before though..

 

[nineball]

To be fair, I don't beleive that's an accurate reflection of Peter's comment regarding LEDs. Many early adopters of LEDs (myself included) are struggling to reproduce the best coloration obtained previously by MH/T5s (specifically, some reds are very difficult.) IMHO, we're about 95% there and it won't be long until the missing spectral spike is identified and accounted for by simply swapping out a few LEDs.

The quest for perfect coloration aside, when considering all other aspects (massive PAR, growth rates, thermal and electrical efficiency, compact size, 10+ year bulb life, "greenness", dimming, variable optics supporting multiple mounting options...) LED's are well ahead and I believe they will eventually represent the bulk of reef lighting - at least until Plasma coloration issues are resolved.

To support my point, all one had to do was observe what lighting technologies took center stage at MACNA. I saw no "game-changing" advances in MH, T5 or Plasma (save perhaps the 95 watt VHOs which unfortunately did not survive shipping.) LEDs were quite simply everywhere.

While LEDs may or may not currently represent the optimal choice for Peters tank, there are thousands of reefers proving that LED illumination can definitely "cut it" when it comes to growing all types of coral.

You are right Tom. I suspect that todays LED's can probably manage to deliver 95% of total requirements to at least 75% of all home aquariums in existence. We are probably two to three years away from closing the gap to 99% of requirements for 99% of all aquariums. There are still improvements to be made on LEDs over metal halides. My tank is a special case due to its size. I believe I will have to compromise in the short run with a migration path to a LED solution in the medium term.

By the way, it was great spending time with you and chatting about these issues at MACNA. Hopefully we will meet again before the next one.

Peter

 

[jahorgos]

To be fair, I don't beleive that's an accurate reflection of Peter's comment regarding LEDs. Many early adopters of LEDs (myself included) are struggling to reproduce the best coloration obtained previously by MH/T5s (specifically, some reds are very difficult.) IMHO, we're about 95% there and it won't be long until the missing spectral spike is identified and accounted for by simply swapping out a few LEDs.

The quest for perfect coloration aside, when considering all other aspects (massive PAR, growth rates, thermal and electrical efficiency, compact size, 10+ year bulb life, "greenness", dimming, variable optics supporting multiple mounting options...) LED's are well ahead and I believe they will eventually represent the bulk of reef lighting - at least until Plasma coloration issues are resolved.

To support my point, all one had to do was observe what lighting technologies took center stage at MACNA. I saw no "game-changing" advances in MH, T5 or Plasma (save perhaps the 95 watt VHOs which unfortunately did not survive shipping.) LEDs were quite simply everywhere.

While LEDs may or may not currently represent the optimal choice for Peters tank, there are thousands of reefers proving that LED illumination can definitely "cut it" when it comes to growing all types of coral.

I guess if we over analyze my statement maybe, but as he just restated (and did I) he will not be able to use LEDs at this time for this type of setup. Clearly I was just discussing the best lighting for his setup and even he has agreed again that LEDs will not cut it for now but hopefully some day will.

 

[Cougarman]

I purchased a protein skimmer a super reef octo and got it in the mail a few months back. I assembled it in my kitchen taking my time to ensure i had done it correctly and when walking up the stairs my dogs (2 yellow labs) bolted down them to greet whoever rang the door bell. As you would guess 2 95 pound dogs tripped me and shattered my new couple hundred dollar protein skimmer.

Best story I've heard lately. Glad to hear you're tank is doing well.

 

[3seconds2live]

Best story I've heard lately. Glad to hear you're tank is doing well.

Thanks cougarman I laugh looking back on it now because I love my dogs but boy was I :furious: at the time. I was about to :uzi: them. I put them outside for a good long time till I collected all the pieces of the skimmer and deemed it garbage then determined they were just doing what they do best to protect the house and I got over it. Now i'm wondering if my tank is healthier because of it.

 

[Apparition]

Thanks cougarman I laugh looking back on it now because I love my dogs but boy was I :furious: at the time. I was about to :uzi: them. I put them outside for a good long time till I collected all the pieces of the skimmer and deemed it garbage then determined they were just doing what they do best to protect the house and I got over it. Now i'm wondering if my tank is healthier because of it.

I do think it's worth pointing out that Mr. Wilson did not indicate that having a skimmer would have a negative impact. Just that it's not the most efficient means of removing POC's. I for one kind of take part in the "whatever works" philosophy with decent success in the past. So I would look at skimming as well as mechanical filtration such as carbon, ozone, uv, and filter socks, but Mr. Wilson makes a very valid point that the price tags on our skimmers may not justify themselves. Then again, many people might say that about most everything in this hobby :beer:

Reading and keeping track of this thread is just getting me very eager to set up another tank. Sadly, that's a couple years off. Simply can't afford to do a tank right at the moment and I believe I should do it right or not at all. The maintenance isn't the issue, just cost as for my next tank I'm thinking of going shallow with LED's. Maybe a trip to Canada with a ski mask, a crane, and a giant semi truck is in order...

 

[mr.wilson]

Maybe a trip to Canada with a ski mask, a crane, and a giant semi truck is in order...

We wear ski masks for half of the year up here, you'll blend right in

 

[nineball]

Update on Flow and Pumps

Update on Flow and Pumps

We have been making serious progress on the plumbing architecture and flow. These photos are not the best because there is a variety of different lights which affects the appearance of the tank but you can see the flow on the surface. These pics have one pump dedicated to the surface returns at 50% and the closed loop pump (we call the anchor) at 70%. There are still three pumps to be added and programmed into the system.

I am extremely pleased with the progress on this front as it is clear that I will have my goal of managed chaos that I set out to achieve from the very beginning of this build. Here are some of the pics which were taken as the tank was being cleaned so we had the advantage of seeing stuff in suspension to judge the flow direction and strength.

Peter

 

[SaraB]

Nice, you are really moving some water now Peter with those surface ripples showing!

 

[Hookup]

This tank is begging for Metal Halides.... The shimmer effect alone is winning me over. I have and love my T5's on my system... but with that kind of surface flow, over the size of this system I cannot see how anything other than Metal Halides would do.

Great photos, thanks for the update.

 

[Apparition]

We have been making serious progress on the plumbing architecture and flow. These photos are not the best because there is a variety of different lights which affects the appearance of the tank but you can see the flow on the surface. These pics have one pump dedicated to the surface returns at 50% and the closed loop pump (we call the anchor) at 70%. There are still three pumps to be added and programmed into the system.

I am extremely pleased with the progress on this front as it is clear that I will have my goal of managed chaos that I set out to achieve from the very beginning of this build. Here are some of the pics which were taken as the tank was being cleaned so we had the advantage of seeing stuff in suspension to judge the flow direction and strength.

Peter

Just a quick question regarding the outlets at the top of the tank. Are those for the return pumps or as part of one of the closed loops? I've always entertained the idea of running a closed loop just for the top of the tank (mostly as I fear drilling a ton of holes into the bottom of any tank, I know it's worked more often then not, but I fear my luck would run out). My only concern with running a closed loop in the canopy above the tank would be noise from the pump above the display.

Or Mr. Wilson, can you recommend a very quiet closed loop pump for this type of application? This would be a nice way to add additional flow to the top half of a tank without running piping from the bottom of the tank to the top.