Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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Maybe it's silly question but why aren't all the fish livestock ordered from our local LFS instead of from LA? I've seen the many variaties of fish specimen that have been imported and made it 'thru the long flight in pretty good shape as well.

They are at least Four LFS' who are capable of importing nice, healthy and sometimes exotic fish (obviously on request) once in a while.

Paul
 
Unfortunately, there is a blame game that goes along with the livestock business, and my intention was certainly not to engage in it. As Peter has mentioned, we are trying to focus on the positive factors of the build, such as the prophylactic and active medication and quarantine of livestock, as well as the issues that may beyond your control.

Most of the vendors we have dealt with have been impressed with the build thread, but in general, it hasn't carried any weight. Chris at Aqua Illumination was nice enough to lend us a test fixture so we could see if it would work for the display or Mars invert system. Michael at Aqua-Digital has offered excellent customer service and appreciates the opportunity of having his products showcased on this build. Chris from Midwest Custom Aquarium shipped us out a great sump and hospital tank in record speed, but like the others I have mentioned, it was because he's a really nice guy to deal with, not because it's free advertising.

Very few aquarium industry people spend time on forums, but this thread has attracted a lot of old and new friends. It is our goal to find the weak areas and rather than dwell upon them, find ways of improving them. Many of the ideas we have discussed here may never be adapted in the hobby or industry, but the will always remain as "Nineball's Best Practices"... Until something better comes along ;)
 
But without naming names can you give us the general thinking of going directly to a wholesaler in the first place? Was your order too big for a LFS? Were you getting any sort of savings or benefit by bypassing your LFS? I guess what we're asking is:

"What was the thinking behind your move to go direct to the wholesaler?"

Thx,

Dave.M
 
Very sorry to hear about your disappointment with the shipment, I also think it is very honorable that you are not post "raging" about the supplier (but from your group I would be shocked if it was anything less ;) you guys have set a very high bar in everything you do).

I hope you guys took digital pics of the shipment / concerns when they arrived, to "help" the supplier realize the seriousness of what you received. It's "possible" some of the managers there are unaware of some of the practices that happen on the shop floor. Yes there will be damage stress from shipment but some of what you described is definitely not do to shipping risks. If they are not honoring their advertised practices and management becomes aware of it, and does nothing... then you are doing a great service to the industry and every reader of this thread to let us know whom they are. Protecting a supplier (because you are so polite and honorable) that does not keep their advertised word and is torturing animals through neglect ....

From a person that is in serious consideration of starting a home based fish and coral business I'm wondering if this is a select few wholesalers like this, or if it is a industry wide practice/problem. This may be one of the reasons that a $0.50 Chromis is $10 at LFS!

Mr. Wilson sorry to pester you but... about you're book, no pressure... is there an eta? Publisher so I /we can grab it and read through it like 12 year olds at Xmass?

Need an apprentice? :) I can't apply for the fish-room girl position because with the hair on my legs, I would not fool anyone.
 
Daks,
speaking from my experiences in the whole sale marine business both in coming and out going I can say honestly this is a large part of why a Chromis is on the order of $10. Many times did I have arguements with suppliers over their practices some were far more accomidating than others, as Mr. Wilson said it is more the fact of being nice guys than not reciving your orders or bad press. I wont be naming names but it took a few years to pick good reliable suppliers and often the best ones cost more but it did balance out after you figure your losses, so for me it became just a matter of personal choice to go with those who held to their words and higher standards.
 
Mr. Wilson, I was wondering if you could comment on how you are treeting so many sick fish at the same time? I am sure your hospital tank is going to be great, but I don't remember seeing that it was set up yet.
 
dave.m said:
But without naming names can you give us the general thinking of going directly to a wholesaler in the first place? Was your order too big for a LFS? Were you getting any sort of savings or benefit by bypassing your LFS? I guess what we're asking is:

"What was the thinking behind your move to go direct to the wholesaler?"

Thx,

Dave.M
Click to expand...

I have been importing tropical fish for 23 years, it is what I do. The size and scope of the order we required was best suited to a wholesaler in LA. They offer selection that we could never find locally.

There are many reef specialty stores in the area, but they focus on coral. We are set up for safely acclimating and quarantining an order, while the LFS's are not. There are some fish that vary widely, like coral beauties for example which are better sourced locally where what you see is what you get.

Buying from a LFS would only further diminish quality and selection. They are doing the same thing that we are doing, only with fewer resources and their mark-up tacked on. If there was a local, value-added service we would surely take advantage of it.

From a financial standpoint, both Peter and I benefit from the distribution route we have chosen.
 
Posidion said:
Daks,
speaking from my experiences in the whole sale marine business both in coming and out going I can say honestly this is a large part of why a Chromis is on the order of $10. Many times did I have arguements with suppliers over their practices some were far more accomidating than others, as Mr. Wilson said it is more the fact of being nice guys than not reciving your orders or bad press. I wont be naming names but it took a few years to pick good reliable suppliers and often the best ones cost more but it did balance out after you figure your losses, so for me it became just a matter of personal choice to go with those who held to their words and higher standards.
Click to expand...

Yes indeed! You find bad suppliers, good suppliers, and better ones in time; just as there are good and bad orders. The last order was a great one, this one wasn't, it all works out in the end.

There are many fish that will never be profitable due to rarity, cost, presentation, and of course losses. Green chromis are one of these fish unfortunately. They cost half of any other damsel to import, but the losses are substantially higher. A common mistake with these fish is to keep them in hyposalinity. The second most common error is to keep them in large groups simply because they look cool. This is where you get fish-to-fish disease transmission. Similar fish succumb to similar diseases, so quarantined fish should be segregated accordingly. Clownfish and yellow tangs are two more examples of this issue. While we are at it, there is the issue of aggression in similar fish, such as mandarin gobies, dwarf angels, and wrasse, yet we commonly see a tank full of flame angels at our LFS. Sure they look cool together, but not after their fins are torn and they are stressed into disease.

We could save another 50% if we buy our fish direct from the country of origin, but we wouldn't have received such a diverse order from Fiji, Hawaii, Marshall Islands, Japan, Indonesia, Philippines, Sri Lanka, and Kenya all in one convenient shipment. It also exposes us and the fish to a lot more perils in the shipping world such as delayed flights, missing connections, bumped for luggage, too hot & too cold in one day, broken bags & boxes, and the inevitable substitutions you get.

Yes it is a PITA, but I love it... wait, that doesn't sound good does it? :)
 
Mikeygo1 said:
Mr. Wilson, I was wondering if you could comment on how you are treeting so many sick fish at the same time? I am sure your hospital tank is going to be great, but I don't remember seeing that it was set up yet.
Click to expand...

We have three Mars systems that are comprised of 9 ten gallon tanks each. The new 130 gallon hospital tank is for bigger fish and perhaps even corals someday. A series of smaller tanks is always safer than one big tank, but there is a size limit to what you can fit into a ten gallon tank.
 
sorry to hear about your bad shipment.more than likely your next will be better.

just out of curiosity what was the ph of the water in the bags when they first arrived.how did you lower the ph in the holding tanks,Co2 or acid.are you using bioballs

shawn id like to see a tank with more than one flame angel.that would be way cool.maybe if you get lucky and watch long enough there will be a pair.

Peter what ever happened to the first clownfish you purchased

vic
 
mr.wilson said:
I have been importing tropical fish for 23 years, it is what I do. The size and scope of the order we required was best suited to a wholesaler in LA. They offer selection that we could never find locally.
Click to expand...
Thx. This helps put things into context. The most significant point to me is that what you are doing is not something that is available to most individual tank owners. We would have to go the LFS route and pay ... and pay ...

Dave.M
 
mr.wilson said:
I have been importing tropical fish for 23 years, it is what I do. The size and scope of the order we required was best suited to a wholesaler in LA. They offer selection that we could never find locally.

There are many reef specialty stores in the area, but they focus on coral. We are set up for safely acclimating and quarantining an order, while the LFS's are not. There are some fish that vary widely, like coral beauties for example which are better sourced locally where what you see is what you get.

Buying from a LFS would only further diminish quality and selection. They are doing the same thing that we are doing, only with fewer resources and their mark-up tacked on. If there was a local, value-added service we would surely take advantage of it.

From a financial standpoint, both Peter and I benefit from the distribution route we have chosen.
Click to expand...

Maybe you could list what exclusive fish you ordered from LA? as i am sure green chromis, anthias and bannerfish are surely available in LFS + they are cheep so you are not saving much in terms of $$$ ordering them from wholesaler, but take higher risk... Such delicate fish like anthias for sure suffer huge stress during such a long flight...:strange:
 
Peter and Shawn,

Did you guys already choose lighting for display tank?
If so, what brand and specification?
Too much text makes me dizzy.
Sorry.
 
swissgaurd said:
sorry to hear about your bad shipment.more than likely your next will be better.

just out of curiosity what was the ph of the water in the bags when they first arrived.how did you lower the ph in the holding tanks,Co2 or acid.are you using bioballs

shawn id like to see a tank with more than one flame angel.that would be way cool.maybe if you get lucky and watch long enough there will be a pair.

Peter what ever happened to the first clownfish you purchased

vic
Click to expand...

The PH in the shipping water was 6.8. I used muriatic acid to lower it. Pure hydrochloric acid is better, Co2 is better still but more time consuming.

We use a bio-wheel for biological filtration courtesy of Mars Systems.

All 6 of the original ocellaris clowns are still alive and well. Peter gave two pairs to Chago, and still has one pair. We added a two adult pairs of perculas but will keep them for breeding (fun).

The display tank is big enough to try pairing fish that normally fight a lot, but it's tough when they are not sexually dimorphic (distinguishable). I specifically asked for a pair of mandarin gobies, but we got two males :(
 
chingchai said:
Peter and Shawn,

Did you guys already choose lighting for display tank?
If so, what brand and specification?
Too much text makes me dizzy.
Sorry.
Click to expand...

Sorry to make you dizzy, but here comes more text:)

I really like the Orphek LED, but the clearance above the display tank is minimal, so LED was ruled out due to poor coverage. We were also looking for a quiet solution with no fans or overheating issues. LED meant 20-30 fans; as quiet as they may be, it all adds up.

We went with 12 x 250 watt double ended HQI MHL, with 12 x 39 watt actinic T5 . It is old technology, but it is proven. We are using three Aqua-Medic fixtures. One of the three fixtures has electronic ballasts and the output is 45% less than the magnetic ballasts, so we have new ones coming in.

We went with a mix of alternating 13,000K Aqualine Buschke and 14,000K Phoenix. The 13,000K is very white (I like it), and the 14,000K is eerie blue; together the mix is perfect. The 13,000K give us 350 PAR on the substrate, while the 14,000K give us 150 PAR. This makes our 250 watt bulbs equal to or brighter than many (14,000K - 22,000K) 400 watt bulbs. If we could fit more 410 - 460 nm blue light (in the form of LED) we would switch to all 13,000K MHL. I do however, like the shadowed mix of the two MHL. It breaks up the monotonous/homogenous (one colour) look of the tank when all the bulbs are the same. The tank has more depth with the mix and it subtly highlights certain coral groupings and rock themes. Most people wouldn't notice the lighting is different. We also like the following points about our MHL choice...

- more realistic, calm shimmer without funny colours (blue & yellow) of LED
- compact footprint (narrow fixture covers the whole 3' wide tank well
- PAR is basically the same (uniform) from centre of tank to outer edges
- only three clean fixtures needed
- absolutely no fans
- timer flexibility (9 light sequences) for sunrise & sunset (east to west MHL on/off sequence)
- actinic lighting for evening viewing, but we would like more
- although not proven to be beneficial, I like the idea of providing UV light, as the sun does (you can't fool nature:))
- manageable number of power source (ballast) boxes
- excellent clearance for tank maintenance. We never need to move it
- easy to install/mount
- small lens area to keep clean
- they get hot, but Peter's exhaust system acts as both a heat sink and exhaust fan
- it looks more like natural light than T5, LED, or plasma
- electrical consumption is about 20%-30% higher than LED but the initial savings (capital cost) is superior to the long term cost (operational cost). Most of the LED fixtures we looked at would take 10 years to pay off.
- the master Chingchai uses MHL :)

I like LED lighting and I'm working with the owner of Orphek LED to make them a more viable option for everyone. I definitely recommend LED for smaller tanks.

I have heard good things about the Neuco MHl bulb. We will be trying some soon. We are happy with what we have, but you of all people know what I'm talking about:) http://coralvue.com/aquastar-14500k/ http://www.narva-neuco.de/
 
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