chingchai
Premium Member
Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
- Start date
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mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I went for a cruise into Toronto's harbour and took this terrible photo but couldn't resist sharing.................. At the center is the well known CN Tower.
Peter
Great you have a boat. I'm right near the lake so you can pick me up for your tank tour
nineball
Active member
Great you have a boat. I'm right near the lake so you can pick me up for your tank tour
Only if you tell me the list of water quality items you gave nahham applies equally to my ecosystem, or if it should be modified for any reason????
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I let Nahham off easy, as he has mother nature supplying fresh replacement water. He does have a nice yaught by the looks of things though. He probably owes me a cruise on the Gulf of Oman by now. Oh man!
Your stocking level will be higher than Nahham with more demanding livestock so you will need to replace/supplement more exotic elements as they are utilized by corals and biological process. These include but are not limited to strontium, iodine, manganese, boron etc. Keep in mind these "trace element" are also "heavy metals", so you will be feeding nuisance algae and poisoning corals if levels are allowed to elevate. These elements enter the aquarium through water changes to a slight extent, and are constantly being added with feedings (nutrient import). These elements are constantly leaving the tank through protein skimming, water changes, and algae farming (nutrient export).
I've never dealt with them, but people seem to like http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/ I don't know why they have a condom in a coconut shell for a logo though??? It's a good idea to stick to a small number of manufacturers of additives so you don't double dose with redundant products. Chemicals go into solution easier when offered as a cocktail (calcium hydroxide, calcium chloride, sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, magnesium sulphate, magnesium chloride).
The water chemistry issue needs to be fine tuned according to what your goals are and how you want to get there. For example, your calcium reactor, if sized right may be able to handle all of your needs if you don't go too heavy into SPS; however, I predict that you will be tipping the scales so a dosing system or Nilsen reactor (kalkwasser reactor) will be in order. Some people use very complex dosing protocols to replace what is missing and remove what is in excess, while others are able to strike a balance with one catch all product like Tropic Marin Bio Calcium. These kind of details can be ironed out over a day cruise to put the whole water thing into proper perspective. You can be designated captain, and I can be the designated drinker. It will be DIY without DUI
The key to maintaing optimum water chemistry (we're not talking about water quality here) is to monitor each parameter carefully and replace the deficit accordingly. There is a complex reaction when you add any chemicals to the tank so you need to strike a balance. For example, adding too much of any one element may cause a snow storm in the tank as chemicals fall out of solution. leaving you with a snow globe. PH is also affected by these additives and can drift up or down if you aren't careful. Where most aquarists get into trouble is with shotgun dosing and knee jerk remedies to correct their mistakes.
Randy Holmes Farley has a nice three part recipe for PH, KH, calcium & magnesium buffering. You can find it over in the chemistry forum here on RC.
Wait a minute, I was supposed to supply a list for the free ride... I'll post it later in the day when I get my sea legs
I can post a master medication list once we start driving golf balls made of fish food off of the deck of your boat
3seconds2live
New member
Finally done I started reading this thread about 2-3 weeks ago from the beginning. I'm still a novice in the hobby I gained a great deal of knowledge from your thread. It was hard to catch up to the ongoing posts especially with all the explanations questions and links supplied that I tried to read most of. Just wanted to thank you for the journey so far and I cant wait to see your tank grow almost as much as I cant wait to see mine grow.
Brian
Brian
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Here's an article by Randy discussing his calcium & alkalinity supplementing system. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
Most of the ionically balanced supplements are based on his formula or earlier ones (1992) by Alf Jacob Nilsen published in FAMA (Fish and Marine Aquarium magazine). Jack Kent from Kent Marine based his entire business on the reef recipes created by Nilsen.
Most of the ionically balanced supplements are based on his formula or earlier ones (1992) by Alf Jacob Nilsen published in FAMA (Fish and Marine Aquarium magazine). Jack Kent from Kent Marine based his entire business on the reef recipes created by Nilsen.
Peter,
A bunch of my friends here use Salinity salt and each pail you get has a print out label attached so you know what it will mix to because each pail has been tested. After mixing the numbers matched the label pretty spot on but in the mixing container after one batch it turned it white with a residue that will not come off and there was a pile of unmixed stuff that settled into the bottom but didn't seem to affect the mix. Also gives off a different smell than anything else I have ever used. I use instant ocean and reef crystals for all my tanks and was going to switch but don't think it is worth it to me.
Love the build by the way!
nineball
Active member
This certainly doesn't get any easier with time does it. I think I need a context as I'm coming to much of this fresh and I'm not always sure what or which problem I am solving. Also I get very concerned when there's a call for batch processing of household chemicals. If there is anything more suspect these days it's claims of quality assurance in common household products.
Mixing vats of driveway antifreeze does feel a little like witchcraft to me.... but my guess is that this is just one more of life's lesson in this hobby.
Back to the books for me.....
Thanks for the link Sean.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Brian, you have to be careful with this stuff. You sound like I was at the outset and look where its taking us. Seriously welcome to the group and thank you for taking the time to wade through this stuff. It really does strengthen the bonds of this community. Your own build will benefit........
Peter
nineball
Active member
Thank you very much Eric. This is very helpful. I have to admit that reef crystals will be my likely choice given a general consensus that I don't think I would be making a mistake. Thanks for taking the time to share this. It will benefit the whole group I think.
Peter
reefgeek31
New member
As of lately i have been looking for a stable continues way of supplying all of my trace elements myself and have came to the conclusion that i think this might be the answer for me.
It is by Fauna marin and if you dig alittle there are a lot of nice tanks using it.
http://faunamarindirect.com/downloads/Balling-Manual.pdf
It is by Fauna marin and if you dig alittle there are a lot of nice tanks using it.
http://faunamarindirect.com/downloads/Balling-Manual.pdf
nineball
Active member
Great you have a boat. I'm right near the lake so you can pick me up for your tank tour
Not my boat Mr. Wilson, my neighbours'. Although more modest, he too is commencing a build. I'll ask him if he wants to do a boys night out..........This gets us to the dock..............
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
This gets us to the dock..............
Peter
...before the ice cream melts no doubt.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Personally, I don't bother with bulk driveway deicers and pickling salt. I find value in homogenous pre-packaged products that take my human error out of the equation. To me making stock solutions is a false economy. Having said that, there is a time and place for good quality chemicals that may be more reliable than whatever the aquarium product manufacturers are putting in the bottle. Overall I would say less is more when it comes to adding supplements.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
As far as context goes, you are absolutely right. You can learn about reef chemistry on a forum about as well as you can about flying a plane. You need to get your hands wet before you get a real grasp of what's going on in the tank.
To oversimplify it... saltwater is made up of all kinds of stuff. Corals use all of those stuffs as building blocks for their reef building skeletons. What is a reef made of? Sugar of course. Through photosynthesis, the energy of the sun and Co2 in the water is used by the symbiotic algae that lives within the coral tissue to produce carbohydrates (sugar) that bind with calcium in the water to form... you guessed it, calcium carbonate. Instant reef.
Now I know what you're thinking, "I thought you were going to over-simplify it Shawn". Well, here's the easy part; you keep track of the stuff that gets smaller like calcium, and add as much as it takes to get back to the magic number. We are fortunate enough to know what natural sea water (NSW) is comprised of so we know the target numbers to shoot for... and no, you cannot improve on mother natures evolution so stick with NSW numbers.
Here's where you could potentially screw up...
1) You use the instructions on the label to dose for x number of gallons. You are dosing for your bioload and consumption, not for bulk system water.
2) You don't have fail-safes in place and accidentally overdose.
3) Your test kit lies to you and you think you are too low with one parameter when in fact you are too high and getting worse.
4) Missing the balance between lighting, water quality, Co2, salts, and elements.
5) You start a roller coaster effect by adding too much of one element then overcompensate with another.
6) Bad chemicals that have either taken on moisture, or fallen out of solution with age, or have become more concentrated due to evaporation.
7) Listening to bad advice or misinterpreting good advice.
8) Following the misconception that you need to put pressure on your corals to grow by continually adding more chemicals.
9) Not allowing corals to adapt to the elevated heavy metal levels of our captive reefs.
10) Misc. human error and calamity.
The good news is you are starting off with a huge volume of water and very little demand for replenishment. Your learning curve will follow your stocking curve. The bad news is this whole reefing thing is like buying a lottery ticket. Having good advice and arming yourself with the right equipment is like having a thousand lottery tickets, but it's still a lottery when nature is at play
To oversimplify it... saltwater is made up of all kinds of stuff. Corals use all of those stuffs as building blocks for their reef building skeletons. What is a reef made of? Sugar of course. Through photosynthesis, the energy of the sun and Co2 in the water is used by the symbiotic algae that lives within the coral tissue to produce carbohydrates (sugar) that bind with calcium in the water to form... you guessed it, calcium carbonate. Instant reef.
Now I know what you're thinking, "I thought you were going to over-simplify it Shawn". Well, here's the easy part; you keep track of the stuff that gets smaller like calcium, and add as much as it takes to get back to the magic number. We are fortunate enough to know what natural sea water (NSW) is comprised of so we know the target numbers to shoot for... and no, you cannot improve on mother natures evolution so stick with NSW numbers.
Here's where you could potentially screw up...
1) You use the instructions on the label to dose for x number of gallons. You are dosing for your bioload and consumption, not for bulk system water.
2) You don't have fail-safes in place and accidentally overdose.
3) Your test kit lies to you and you think you are too low with one parameter when in fact you are too high and getting worse.
4) Missing the balance between lighting, water quality, Co2, salts, and elements.
5) You start a roller coaster effect by adding too much of one element then overcompensate with another.
6) Bad chemicals that have either taken on moisture, or fallen out of solution with age, or have become more concentrated due to evaporation.
7) Listening to bad advice or misinterpreting good advice.
8) Following the misconception that you need to put pressure on your corals to grow by continually adding more chemicals.
9) Not allowing corals to adapt to the elevated heavy metal levels of our captive reefs.
10) Misc. human error and calamity.
The good news is you are starting off with a huge volume of water and very little demand for replenishment. Your learning curve will follow your stocking curve. The bad news is this whole reefing thing is like buying a lottery ticket. Having good advice and arming yourself with the right equipment is like having a thousand lottery tickets, but it's still a lottery when nature is at play
nineball
Active member
Philosophically we are in strong agreement, in my case the basis is instinct and in yours its science...........
Peter
Padrino
New member
As far as context goes, you are absolutely right. You can learn about reef chemistry on a forum about as well as you can about flying a plane. You need to get your hands wet before you get a real grasp of what's going on in the tank.
To oversimplify it... saltwater is made up of all kinds of stuff. Corals use all of those stuffs as building blocks for their reef building skeletons. What is a reef made of? Sugar of course. Through photosynthesis, the energy of the sun and Co2 in the water is used by the symbiotic algae that lives within the coral tissue to produce carbohydrates (sugar) that bind with calcium in the water to form... you guessed it, calcium carbonate. Instant reef.
Now I know what you're thinking, "I thought you were going to over-simplify it Shawn". Well, here's the easy part; you keep track of the stuff that gets smaller like calcium, and add as much as it takes to get back to the magic number. We are fortunate enough to know what natural sea water (NSW) is comprised of so we know the target numbers to shoot for... and no, you cannot improve on mother natures evolution so stick with NSW numbers.
Here's where you could potentially screw up...
1) You use the instructions on the label to dose for x number of gallons. You are dosing for your bioload and consumption, not for bulk system water.
2) You don't have fail-safes in place and accidentally overdose.
3) Your test kit lies to you and you think you are too low with one parameter when in fact you are too high and getting worse.
4) Missing the balance between lighting, water quality, Co2, salts, and elements.
5) You start a roller coaster effect by adding too much of one element then overcompensate with another.
6) Bad chemicals that have either taken on moisture, or fallen out of solution with age, or have become more concentrated due to evaporation.
7) Listening to bad advice or misinterpreting good advice.
8) Following the misconception that you need to put pressure on your corals to grow by continually adding more chemicals.
9) Not allowing corals to adapt to the elevated heavy metal levels of our captive reefs.
10) Misc. human error and calamity.
The good news is you are starting off with a huge volume of water and very little demand for replenishment. Your learning curve will follow your stocking curve. The bad news is this whole reefing thing is like buying a lottery ticket. Having good advice and arming yourself with the right equipment is like having a thousand lottery tickets, but it's still a lottery when nature is at play
Shawn,
Well put. But how about take it really slow ,
Peter,
your tank does not need to be full right away. Slowly add corals a few at a time to let your biological filtration catch up to the slight increase in bio-load. Remember nothing good ever happens fast. So far, you have taken it nice and slow. don't stop now. great job
Rob
Antonais1391
New member
Pure genus Mr. Wilson, ive been looking so hard for advice on dosing and that's exactly what i needed to read. ive started dosing very slowly already but this calms my nerves a bit. Peter your taste in cars is great. cant wait for the next big update.As far as context goes, you are absolutely right. You can learn about reef chemistry on a forum about as well as you can about flying a plane. You need to get your hands wet before you get a real grasp of what's going on in the tank.
To oversimplify it... saltwater is made up of all kinds of stuff. Corals use all of those stuffs as building blocks for their reef building skeletons. What is a reef made of? Sugar of course. Through photosynthesis, the energy of the sun and Co2 in the water is used by the symbiotic algae that lives within the coral tissue to produce carbohydrates (sugar) that bind with calcium in the water to form... you guessed it, calcium carbonate. Instant reef.
Now I know what you're thinking, "I thought you were going to over-simplify it Shawn". Well, here's the easy part; you keep track of the stuff that gets smaller like calcium, and add as much as it takes to get back to the magic number. We are fortunate enough to know what natural sea water (NSW) is comprised of so we know the target numbers to shoot for... and no, you cannot improve on mother natures evolution so stick with NSW numbers.
Here's where you could potentially screw up...
1) You use the instructions on the label to dose for x number of gallons. You are dosing for your bioload and consumption, not for bulk system water.
2) You don't have fail-safes in place and accidentally overdose.
3) Your test kit lies to you and you think you are too low with one parameter when in fact you are too high and getting worse.
4) Missing the balance between lighting, water quality, Co2, salts, and elements.
5) You start a roller coaster effect by adding too much of one element then overcompensate with another.
6) Bad chemicals that have either taken on moisture, or fallen out of solution with age, or have become more concentrated due to evaporation.
7) Listening to bad advice or misinterpreting good advice.
8) Following the misconception that you need to put pressure on your corals to grow by continually adding more chemicals.
9) Not allowing corals to adapt to the elevated heavy metal levels of our captive reefs.
10) Misc. human error and calamity.
The good news is you are starting off with a huge volume of water and very little demand for replenishment. Your learning curve will follow your stocking curve. The bad news is this whole reefing thing is like buying a lottery ticket. Having good advice and arming yourself with the right equipment is like having a thousand lottery tickets, but it's still a lottery when nature is at play
Anthony
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
One point I should have stressed is that it's difficult to do harm to a coral by underdosing elements, while overdosing is a very common cause of coral damage and mortality.
These chemicals intract strongly with each other. Adding too much of one can cause another to fall out of soliution (turn from liquid to solid or at least bind with another chemical). Most of these elements will also impact PH either up or down, so keep an eye on your ph meter to establish if you are adding too much to fast. There is such thing as too much of a good thing in this case.
Think of corals as being similar to our bodies. We utilize calcium and many of the same building blocks to build our skeletons. A deficit will not quickly kill a coral, while a surplus will do harm. You just need to go slow and keep the trace elements and salts at NSW levels. Too much of anything becomes poison. Too little will only retard growth or cause the colours to fade.
In the end, all of the testing equipment in the world won't equall the signals the corals are giving you. Open (feeding) polyps and natural bright colours are your natural meter.
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