Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[killerbee181]

just wondering have you tried closing all the ends in the tank and leaving just one open just to see how much flow your actually getting to the tank before it hits all the T's and openings? Have you tried running the pumps with no plumbing hooked to them just to see what they can do before you restrict them? Could it be to restricted on the suction side?
Terry

 

[nineball]

For myself i have always did my best to see what would be ideal flow then increase that by 50% it is easy to slow a pump down but when you are falling short there is no hope. I would say you should have total chaos in the tank with only the closed loop system running then the only work the return side has is keeping the surface clean. Are the new pumps pressure rated or volume pumps. Size in this area doesn't matter if it cant handle to pressure then the second one cant either. Hope you get what i mean. To much pump is the right answer

Thanks reefgeek. There is a proposed solution which involves pressure rated chem pumps but how do you describe the chaos??? How do you know its enough??....too much???

Peter

 

[nineball]

Just got caught up on this thread. Wow what a project! What a read. Have you thought of reducing the diameter of you piping to increase the pressure on your return? You can add more return lines with smaller diameter openings and you should be able to increase your turbulence.
Don

Yes Don, but this tank is almost 25 ft long. I think I need to do more than fine tune the return lines to get sufficient turbulence. How can I be sure that food makes it through the whole column?

Reducing the diameter seems to me like a rifle shot when we need a shotgun???but I could be totally off base.

Peter

 

[nineball]

Now the question is, what is the best calcium test kit on the market? I have a Pinpoint calcium meter, but it is very unreliable and difficult to calibrate. I bought it about 5 years ago when it first came out so maybe they fixed the problem, but at the time everyone on the forums had the same problems and said throw it away. I used mine one (frustrating) day and put it in storage. After spending $300.00 on it couldn't just toss it.

Any ideas?



I've used LaMotte for many, many years and as you know they do work well. The reagents should be relatively fresh. I'm sure you know this but just in case here's how to figure out the reagents and shelf life.

http://www.lamotte.com/pages/common/pages/reaglist.html

I've also used Hach kits and they appear to have similar accuracy to the LaMotte kits. Hach does have a digital titrator, 10-4000 mg/L, for Calcium testing. I have not used that particular unit but based on the quality of their other equipment I would have to give it a nod.

Are you going with a dual chamber desiccant regenerator? After 20+ years of "eating" ozonizers I have found that dry air is important. A dual chamber will allow having dry desiccant always available.

My 2 cents worth(possibly inflated)

Greg

Greg, I'll let Mr. Wilson try and answer these questions when he gets a chance.....its outside my sphere of experience and understanding.

Peter

 

[swissgaurd]

your piping on the return line should be the same size as the outlet of the pump never larger,if you have run larger piping you can obtain some pressure by adjusting valves to get a little more pressure a 1hp pump should be more than enough.
what you can do for a test is attach a flex line (braided pvc) with no valves,just direct to your tank and see what the flow is like.( you will find a use for this hose later)
there is a local person to our area,hes an expert with fluid dynamics,he may be of some help to you.( i have no acces to his number till tomorrow afternoon.)
his company name is called the hose doctor,i can get you the number if you cant find it,not sure if hes got a website.
if you do find it tell him vic from menufoods refered you,
you can also contact regional hose
they know there stuff as well
hope this helps some.

vic

 

[dave.m]

Peter, I'm not sure I understand when you say you want your internal closed-loop system to produce "chaos." Certainly, the internal system is supposed to be your prime source of water movement within the tank, but if you set up a gyre (which Mr. Wilson is quite familiar with) there shouldn't be a need for excessive turbulence/chaos. Since you've never actually published your plumbing schematics I think it would be pretty hard for the more knowledgeable people here (not me) to venture opinions.

Dave.M

 

[nineball]

just wondering have you tried closing all the ends in the tank and leaving just one open just to see how much flow your actually getting to the tank before it hits all the T's and openings? Have you tried running the pumps with no plumbing hooked to them just to see what they can do before you restrict them? Could it be to restricted on the suction side?
Terry

Yes Terry we did and I don't believe the pumps are an issue. We are going to use different pumps in any event. We will rise to the occasion with respect to the flow. The question at this point is how much flow is enough.......? How do you know when enough is enough?

Peter

 

[elijaher]

Are you still going to be using miracle mud?

 

[Robb in Austin]

Peter,

When everything is blowing all over the tank.

My job here is done.

Of course, it depends on what you want to keep too.

 

[swissgaurd]

how much flow is enough?
if you have water splashing over the sides its to much.
to get the chaos on the surface you will need to direct the flow to the top from different directions.
if you put your hand infront say 24 inches away from the outlet and have trouble keeping your fingers straight then the fish will also have trouble.

thinking out loud now for an idea ,which might bring something to the table.

something like a bogle head weighted down with a rock or a plastic weight and keep moving it to different locations in the tank to see movement or flow,do you see what im getting at

vic

 

[jjk_reef00]

This is a great thread and I appreciate you sharing your experiences with us fellow reefers.

As for the closed loop, you are using 1hp pumps so I'm assuming you have a lot of smaller return points. Perhaps it would be better suited for less return points but make the outlets larger. When I was looking at pumps 1hp and larger they all seem to drop significantly with head pressure. You want more flow, then reduce the head pressure. I think larger openings could possibly do that.

Also on another thread I was reading they designed the closed loop to try to move the water at the upper levels of the tank. They stated that the bottom would follow the top water.

 

[nineball]

your piping on the return line should be the same size as the outlet of the pump never larger,if you have run larger piping you can obtain some pressure by adjusting valves to get a little more pressure a 1hp pump should be more than enough.
what you can do for a test is attach a flex line (braided pvc) with no valves,just direct to your tank and see what the flow is like.( you will find a use for this hose later)
there is a local person to our area,hes an expert with fluid dynamics,he may be of some help to you.( i have no acces to his number till tomorrow afternoon.)
his company name is called the hose doctor,i can get you the number if you cant find it,not sure if hes got a website.
if you do find it tell him vic from menufoods refered you,
you can also contact regional hose
they know there stuff as well
hope this helps some.

vic

Thanks Vic, there is an obvious problem with the current design and Mr. Wilson and I have been examining alternatives open to us without punching any more holes in the tank than we have already. I think there will be clear documentation that will be helpful in this discussion soon. I've asked Mr. Wilson to publish it here when he has a chance. To your opening point however, I believe we may have definitely had a problem with a larger hose than necessary so that will be fixed. However, I still want to know how much flow is enough? And how do you know?

Peter

 

[elijaher]

Depends what type of live stock. Like sps can handle up to 100 times turnover. Mixed tank 20 to 50 times turnover.

 

[nineball]

Are you still going to be using miracle mud?

Yes elijaher, I am. We are planing to use it in a unique way which I believe has some great potential for others in this thread. Even Chingchai will be impressed I think. Stay tuned!!!!!

Peter

 

[Rizup]

The amount of flow required definitely depends on what you plan on keeping in the tank. Since I have a feeling there will be plenty of SPS, too much flow is not as much of a concern in my opinion. You just want to make sure that corals are not placed in the direct flow if it is a high pressure stream. Of course, you also need to take into consideration that flow dynamics within the tank will change over time, especially when the corals start getting large. Make sure that is in the back of your mind when figuring out the flow. It is a good idea to have a vision of how the rock formation will be laid out when designing the plumbing in my opinion, otherwise you work backwards and have to design the rock layout around the plumbing. In this case I think that may be what ends up being done, but I don't see a problem with it.

You have mentioned chaos several times. Have you considered talking to Paul over at Oceans Motions? As far as chaos in flow goes, I would think he may be a great person to talk to. Can't remember where I saw this, but I don't think it was here. Definitely a hint of chaos there - "That'll do" :thumbsup:

Did we decide that surge tanks are not a possibility with the overall design? A nice surge at each end would really create some chaos :smokin:

 

[nineball]

how much flow is enough?
if you have water splashing over the sides its to much.
to get the chaos on the surface you will need to direct the flow to the top from different directions.
if you put your hand infront say 24 inches away from the outlet and have trouble keeping your fingers straight then the fish will also have trouble.

thinking out loud now for an idea ,which might bring something to the table.

something like a bogle head weighted down with a rock or a plastic weight and keep moving it to different locations in the tank to see movement or flow,do you see what im getting at

vic

Ok Vic, this is exactly, well almost exactly where I was hoping to go. I'm not sure about the bobble head doll but the idea of coming up with some sort of measure is a good one. There is a literal description that goes with the Richter scale for earth quakes and a similar literal description describing how to rate a tornado. I know there isn't an equivalent in this case but I have a feeling this is closer to what I am looking for. I like your example that if the current is strong enough to move your fingers at 2 ft then its too strong. I know thats extreme but its a great idea to develop further.

Very good Vic.........

Peter

 

[nineball]

The amount of flow required definitely depends on what you plan on keeping in the tank. Since I have a feeling there will be plenty of SPS, too much flow is not as much of a concern in my opinion. You just want to make sure that corals are not placed in the direct flow if it is a high pressure stream. Of course, you also need to take into consideration that flow dynamics within the tank will change over time, especially when the corals start getting large. Make sure that is in the back of your mind when figuring out the flow. It is a good idea to have a vision of how the rock formation will be laid out when designing the plumbing in my opinion, otherwise you work backwards and have to design the rock layout around the plumbing. In this case I think that may be what ends up being done, but I don't see a problem with it.

You have mentioned chaos several times. Have you considered talking to Paul over at Oceans Motions? As far as chaos in flow goes, I would think he may be a great person to talk to. Can't remember where I saw this, but I don't think it was here. Definitely a hint of chaos there - "That'll do" :thumbsup:

Did we decide that surge tanks are not a possibility with the overall design? A nice surge at each end would really create some chaos :smokin:

You raise a number of good points and I agree very much with your perspective. I do think that the discussion will be enhanced with the design documentation that we will be posting shortly. Surge tanks however may not be an option with the current layout of the tank. Mr. Wilson will have a number of things to say on that topic when he gets a chance to jump in.........


Peter

 

[killerbee181]

something else to help with flow not sure if you've already checked these but i've seen these really help with adding to the flow

http://www.marinedepot.com/Pacific_...s-Pacific_Coast_Imports-FT0033-FIFTFB-vi.html

flow wise i've always thought it's not so much how many gph your moving but more how the flow is being used. Especially in a tank like yours i think your biggest problem will be trying to keep detritus in suspension long enough to get to the overflows and be skimmed out of the tank. To add on to what vic said i think it would be better if you measured where the corals would be. A streams not a problem as long as it's not blowing into the coral or the sand bed. The fish will move out of the way. I have a few tangs that like to swim right in front of the powerheads like there on a treadmill lol.
Terry

 

[killerbee181]

The amount of flow required definitely depends on what you plan on keeping in the tank. Since I have a feeling there will be plenty of SPS, too much flow is not as much of a concern in my opinion. You just want to make sure that corals are not placed in the direct flow if it is a high pressure stream. Of course, you also need to take into consideration that flow dynamics within the tank will change over time, especially when the corals start getting large. Make sure that is in the back of your mind when figuring out the flow. It is a good idea to have a vision of how the rock formation will be laid out when designing the plumbing in my opinion, otherwise you work backwards and have to design the rock layout around the plumbing. In this case I think that may be what ends up being done, but I don't see a problem with it.

You have mentioned chaos several times. Have you considered talking to Paul over at Oceans Motions? As far as chaos in flow goes, I would think he may be a great person to talk to. Can't remember where I saw this, but I don't think it was here. Definitely a hint of chaos there - "That'll do" :thumbsup:

Did we decide that surge tanks are not a possibility with the overall design? A nice surge at each end would really create some chaos :smokin:

Could you imagine one of those on this tank you would be able to surf the wave by the time it got to the other end! lol

 

[prostaff]

I am not a big fan of closed loops for larger tanks. I had a couple of hammerhead pumps on a closed loop in a 10' x 4' tank with about 8 nozzles and I could barely feel a thing from each nozzle. Ended up replacing that with a few tunzes and the difference is amazing. I can also now adjust the flow as the corals grow not to mention the electric bill savings
I just think they work better on 4 - 6 ft tanks.