Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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I was also just thinking that propeller stream-type pumps may actually be a better choice for water movement in a tank this big than a closed stream set up.

Have you and mr wilson considered the Tunze Masterstream pumps?
 
Finally made it to page 26 and now my sleeping meds are kicking in!!!!!(no fighting these meds they win) Peter its been said a million times already so One million and one, This is BEAUTIFUL so far and to think no water yet. It's truly amazing that your sharing ALL this with us here on RC and taking in the advice and concerns with a clear head. Im off to see the sandman will continue this tomorrow :)
PS subscribed also
 
Also, have you see what some of your other fellow large tank owners have been pondering for flow?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16486228&postcount=368

b-propeye170.jpg
 
Yes Don, but this tank is almost 25 ft long. I think I need to do more than fine tune the return lines to get sufficient turbulence. How can I be sure that food makes it through the whole column?

Reducing the diameter seems to me like a rifle shot when we need a shotgun???but I could be totally off base.

Peter

In my tanks i like to push the flow to where the sand shifts slightly. Basically as much as the sand will allow, how can we ever match the water movement of the ocean. The only problem is with only the close loop you are looking at point pressure (lack of a better term) Maybe instead of down sizing to lock line a nice large 1 1/4" 90 or 45 would be a better match. Thinking volume instead of pressure. Lots of movement but as little pressure as possible as to not blast any coral. Also maybe something like oceanmotions with the revolution heads would help things. I'm just brainstorming and speaking aloud. Its late school ran late and i just finished homework and my son will be awake in 5 hrs. Good night and good luck.
Here is a link to the oceanmotions look around and maybe it will help with the creative juices. I like the omni flex nozzles also
 
I was also just thinking that propeller stream-type pumps may actually be a better choice for water movement in a tank this big than a closed stream set up.

Have you and mr wilson considered the Tunze Masterstream pumps?

There is also the Big German Stream pump that will knock the socks off the tunze.... We discussed it briefly previously, but I have one now!.

Here it is

Mo
 
Hi Peter

I can vouch for that German pump that Mo is using. Very powerful efficient and reliable.I believe Shawn knows about this pump.
It is called Venotec (Abyzz).
 
The amount of flow required definitely depends on what you plan on keeping in the tank. Since I have a feeling there will be plenty of SPS, too much flow is not as much of a concern in my opinion. You just want to make sure that corals are not placed in the direct flow if it is a high pressure stream. Of course, you also need to take into consideration that flow dynamics within the tank will change over time, especially when the corals start getting large. Make sure that is in the back of your mind when figuring out the flow. It is a good idea to have a vision of how the rock formation will be laid out when designing the plumbing in my opinion, otherwise you work backwards and have to design the rock layout around the plumbing. In this case I think that may be what ends up being done, but I don't see a problem with it.

You have mentioned chaos several times. Have you considered talking to Paul over at Oceans Motions? As far as chaos in flow goes, I would think he may be a great person to talk to. Can't remember where I saw this, but I don't think it was here. Definitely a hint of chaos there - "That'll do" :thumbsup:

Did we decide that surge tanks are not a possibility with the overall design? A nice surge at each end would really create some chaos :smokin:

peter do give paul a call.
he knows his stuff hes studied water flow for many years.
he loves to talk about water motion.
im pretty sure hell solve your problem.
and to think his shop is in brampton.
if you havent met him already.i would recommend him.im sure shawn has met him a few times.

vic
 
Hi Peter

I would be more concerned about flow through the tank than the "pressure" of the flow coming from the outlets. Without knowing too much about your plumbing, I think "head pressure" would seem to be reducing the efficiency of your pumps. Pushing the water up in to the tank is not adding to head pressure, as this is negated by the fact that the pumps are effectivley being gravity fed by the tank. Therefore the only thing increasing the head pressure is the plumbing itself, smaller diameter pipes will increase the speed of the flow, but also increase the head pressure. Keeping the size of the plumbing as large as the outlet of the pumps you are working with, the inlet diameter ideally larger, reducing the diameter only after it is tee'd off will help to keep the head pressure down, using 45's instead of 90 degree bends would also help, every bend in the plumbing will also add to head pressure, as will putting nozzles on your outlets, maximum flow will be more important than decreasing flow to increase the speed of flow from the outlet.
I'm certainly not an expert in fluid dynamics, just the research that I'm applying to my build.
P.S. - As long as you're being open minded to all plumbing/flow options at the moment, I have purchased 6 Tunze pumps for my 1450l (375 gal) tank to give me a potential flow rate of 108000 litres (28500 gal) an hour, or turning over the tank volume about 74 times an hour (way overkill, but the potential's there). These pumps can be controlled to work on alternate flow between the pumps, so you're only using about 50% to 70% of the collective pumps flow at any one time (I'm sure you've noticed these on Chingchai's tank!)
Sorry for the long post, it's not too often I feel I can add to the constructive process in this thread, but I hope this might help.
Cheers Ben :beer:
 
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I am not a big fan of closed loops for larger tanks. I had a couple of hammerhead pumps on a closed loop in a 10' x 4' tank with about 8 nozzles and I could barely feel a thing from each nozzle. Ended up replacing that with a few tunzes and the difference is amazing. I can also now adjust the flow as the corals grow not to mention the electric bill savings
I just think they work better on 4 - 6 ft tanks.
that is my experience too.
 
Could you imagine one of those on this tank you would be able to surf the wave by the time it got to the other end! lol

No kidding! That would be awesome. You could get some REAL waves going in there up until they hit the other side and splashed all over the place :lolspin:
 
I'd like a better idea of your expectations. I don't recall if you ever mentioned using wave boxes or Tunze or if you want the closed loop system to supply most/all of your water changes. If so, you're likely undersized, although we've never seen detailed pump/piping specs so it's still hard to tell. If your looking for the closed loop to handle 20 turns/hour, it would require a pump and plumbing capable of 27,000 gals/hr or 7.5 gals/sec based on 1350 gal tank. With 1.5 inch Schedule 40 PVC pipe, that would require a flow rate of 71 ft/sec. Even if your pumps can handle that, at those rates, every elbow and fitting is VERY significant. And cross your fingers that you never have your piping burst, you'd empty your tank in 3 minutes.

From looking at old pics of your tank and listening to the issues, I do think you have piping issues. You have piping that enters the bottom of your tank and then tees and tees again to create 4 outlets for each hole you have in the tank bottom. The thing that first caught my eye when you first posted the pics was that the piping entering the tank bottom is the same size (maybe 1 inch PVC) as the 4 outlets that it tees to. Therefore, whatever flow you had coming into the bottom of the tank is cut to 1/4.

I'd be very interested to see the pressure readings if you put a pressure gauge just after the pump outlet. If your pressure is higher, you're restricting your flow with your piping too much, if it's very low, then your pumps are undersized for what you're looking for.

What are the flow ratings for the pumps you have currently? Those numbers are pretty accurate and should fit into your equations well. Beyond that, it's plumbing. Every elbow, valve and union causes loss in flow, especially if your piping is undersized.

However, I think you're better served by offloading some of the flow requirements to waveboxes or Tunze rather than creating an industrial pumping system. If you do go that way, invest in monitors and automated valves that can shut things down of your pipes burst. Use the closed loops to put flow in the hidden areas of the tank that other methods can't reach.
 
I have been following this thread for a while so let me throw in my comments. Flow in large tanks seems to be much different from flow in small tanks. In a large tank, bulk water flow seems to work better as the size of the tank allows currents to be developed that would be impossible with smaller tanks. This being the case, the gyre style would be better suited then a bunch of small outlets. Consider the case of using a flow rated pump (Reeflo Super Dart Gold) combined with an OceansMotions 4-Way with a Version 3 drum, you would be able to have a section of the tank have bulk water flow in one direction and then switch it to the opposite direction. If you were to employ two such setups you would get ~4300gph*2 = 8600gph for a max of 350W where using a hammerhead would flow a max of 5800gph while using a max of 375W. In this scenario, using two smaller pumps will gain you more flow for about the same energy usage. Since you are looking at closed loop the use of two pumps over one means you can take one closed loop down for maintenance without shutting down all flow in the tank.

Eductors are another way to go for gaining bulk water motion. However, to function properly they need a pressure rated pump rather than a flow rated pump.
http://www.kthsales.com/website/Misc/hello_salt_water_enthusiasts.htm
The eductors mentioned work best at about 23' of head with 7gpm which means a MantaRay would be able to run 10 of these. Given that each eductor will pull 2-3 times as much water into the outlet stream as the pump provides, you will be looking at something like 12600gph for 900W.

Given those scenarios you get:
1) (2) Super Dart Gold + 4-way= 8600/350= 24.6 gph per watt
2) Hammerhead + 4-way = 5800/375 = 15.5 gph per watt
3) MantaRay + (10) eductors = 12600/900 = 14 gph per watt

Based on this crude and definitely WAG calculation, I still think that several efficient low-head, high-flow pumps combined with motorized wavemakers would result in the most turbulent flow for the least daily cost. If the openings exist, using two or more separate closed loops and having the 4-ways on timers/controlled would mean that semi-random flow patterns can be created within the display by varying the times that each outlet switches throughout the day. An example would be to have the controller turn off the 4-way on one pump for an hour at noon, turn off a different 4-way at 6pm, and so on. Since you wouldn't know which outlets the 4-way was directing water to at the time of shut off you would get equal chance of either direction but during that hour the flow would be predominately in one direction while the other pump creates turbulance against this bulk flow.

Just a crazy idea I have been throwing around for a dream system.

RocketEngineer
 
Hello Peter,

Sorry for the late reply in regards to the fantastic pictures of the gardens. I've been attempting to enjoy the summer in central ontario since it seems to be raining more often than not!

I am really enjoying the new topics of discussion that are being announced to us the community of the David Letterman's Top 10 list. The implemented changes and ideas that are being brought forward are very interesting. I am most excited to learn the further details about both the cryptic fuge and mangrove refugium setup. I note from the listing the cryptic fuge will replace the bio ball setup in the main sump but I may of missed or it wasn't noted where the mangrove fuge will be setup. I think such a setup could benefit this setup postively but as others have noted earlier in the thread I would assume the size of this refugium would be of notable size to actually have an effect on the water quality?

Anyhow I'm looking forward to further updates and progress with this setup I am sure you will be nothing but pleased with progress you and your team will see in the future.

As a side note the ozone discussion that took place with the fellow members touching on ozone has directly effected me in a positive manner and I feel that this topic on the top ten list will also provide you with great results as I see almost all large systems are still/currently utilizing this particular piece of equipment.

Cheers,

Patrick
 
If you are picking up fish from the LFS down the street and the fish are only in transit for an hour, then a drip system is adequate, but long packing duration requires more delicate acclimation to ease the stress of extreme water conditions.

I still don't like the idea of floating fish bags as they may have medications and chemicals from a packing counter or holding tank (particularly copper). The fish are also stressed by the pinched corners of the bag and are forced to inhale oxygen from the surface as the bag rolls around in the water current. Bags can float under bright aquarium lighting, fish can pick on the new ones while they are still in the bag, and in some cases the bag collapses eliminating all gas exchange which can kill a fish quickly.

I think we all agree that the shipping water with the fish has no business in our systems. In addition to it containing chemicals and medications, it harbours bacteria and parasites and the water quality at fish stores is less than pristine. Every time a wholesaler imports a fish, he imports diseases that are unique to that part of the world and even that part of the reef. Fish stores are at the end of the chain of distribution and are therefore a united nations of fish fish diseases with every possible pathogen represented :)

In Peter's case as with people who buy from distant suppliers over seas or in another State, the fish will be in that shipping water for at least 24 hours. As the fish breathes it converts o2 into Co2. The Co2 is in a liquid form (carbonic acid) which, like any acid, lowers the PH. The longer the fish is bagged, the lower the PH. On one hand a PH of 6.7 - 7.0 is stressful to the fish, but on the plus side it takes the toxic ion out of ammonia rendering it harmless.

So now you receive your fish at home and the first thing you do is open the bag and let that "bad" air out and let "good" air in... wrong! As soon as a gas exchange occurs, the PH is rapidly driven back up to 8.0 - 8.2. This increase in PH is not only a shock to the fish, but a deadly poison as the toxic ion of ammonia goes back into solution. I've seen fish orders die in 20 minutes after travelling for 48 hours successfully :(

One solution is moving the fish directly into new water with matching parameters (PH, temp, salinity etc.). The small scale alternative is to add ammonia neutralizing chemicals such as Kordon Amquel. http://www.novalek.com/kordon/amquel/index.htm Kordon has another helpful product called Novaqua that helps restore a fishes slime coat while removing nitrite, heavy metals etc. http://www.novalek.com/kordon/novaqua/index.htm

The problem with drip systems is in the execution not the theory. People tend to use containers that aren't food grade so chemicals can leach out, especially when we are adding acid or oxidizers. LFS's have a bad habit of using dirty styrofoam boxes that have been used many times for everything from holding tanks to porta-potty, on both sides of the globe. Styrofoam containers are too bright (white). Fish are very sensitive to light during acclimation. Styrofoam containers are also to wide, requiring too much water to fill the bottom so LFS workers prop them up at an angle to concentrate the water in the corner. This works fine until it falls with the weight of the new water.

Another common problem is drip lines that stop dripping or drip too fast or fall out of the acclimation container and pee on the floor. Air lines are equally as problematic. Fish don't like the sound, air bubbles can cause nitrogen bubble disease (tiny air bubbles trapped in the gills), and air lines are notorious for floating up and out of the water. This may sound implausible for your pair of clowns you just brought home, but I'm talking about larger scale operations where you lose track of what you have and where it is. Working in the dark late at night (from an overseas flight) compounds the problem.

Drip systems also have an issue of jumpers. Shallow containers with fish darting around and smashing into each other is a recipe for jumping. It's like that hyperspace button in Asteroids for those of you ld enough to remember it (or young enough to have the capacity for long term memory). The fish hits the hyperspace button when things look grim (sorry brothers, no pun intended).

The ideal system for acclimating fish is a dark room with prepared tanks set at the parameters of the shipping water. Fish acclimate better to slightly higher water temperatures than they do to slightly lower temps, but i would go with the Goldilocks method of getting the porridge just right :) Fish should undergo a maximum temp swing of 1F over a 24 hour period. The temp will likely be 68-72F so ice can be used to match it initially. Maintaining a cool temp over a few days can be a bit of a challenge without a chiller. Keeping acclimation tanks on a concrete floor or in a climate controlled room helps. The ice can be kept in bags if the salinity is already matched, but I have found that shippers usually have a hyposalinity (low salinity) of 1.017 - 1.019. From time to time they come in with a hypersalinity (high salinity) so salt should be pre-dissolved in a slurry that can be added to the acclimation tanks. A low salinity helps reduce parasites and stressed fish will feel more comfortable than in high salinity where they need to constantly pump the salts out of their bodies. A salinity of 1.019 feels like 1.022 to a stressed fish. Fish also acclimate much better going into lower salinity water than into higher salinity water due to a reduced osmotic pressure. Keep in mind the fish will be stressed as the salinity goes up when they go to the display tank. This is why a regular water change over the three week acclimation/QT is a good idea.

By adding acid or Co2 to an acclimation tank or system you can slowly bring the PH up over 24 hours or longer for sensitive fish like puffers. Drips are hard to maintain for more than a few hours. I go with a hybrid of mixing shipping water and acidified (PH corrected) water while acclimating shrimp and lobsters. Anemones are another one that need lots of time to adjust, particularly when they turn themselves inside-out. The key is to maintain excellent water quality (no ammonia or nitrite and high levels of dissolved oxygen) while acclimating. Sometimes a drip or hybrid system can't give you the optimum water conditions and stress-free environment the fish need.

Big commercial orders often take 6-12 hours to unpack so the temp and PH can shift while you work. I check a sample bag in every box to make sure I'm still on target. The boxes from The Philippines are double boxes with one on top of the other. During winter months the bottom box can be 5 - 10F cooler than the top box (especially if you use Northwest Airlines who fly everything through Detroit). Each airline uses its own hub to route flights. Pick one that is direct and with a moderate climate. In the summer you can use an airline with a hub in Chicago, not Tampa, while in the winter Tampa sounds a lot more tropical fish friendly than Chicago. Another variation exists with different sized fish. Damsels ship with a small splash of water while large tangs, angels & butterflies ship with lots of water. The bags with lots of water will have a higher temperature as they have a greater thermal mass, thus slower to swing when exposed to the cold. Keep in mind, the fish are stuck on a runway in a tropical country for hours where they are exposed to direct sunlight, then a cool shipping compartment, and then whatever your local airport has to offer. It would be nice to pack a thermometer with a 24 hour memory in a fish box.

Once the acclimation/QT tank is ready, pull up a seat and start cutting bags with sharp scissors and remove each fish by gloved hand to an appropriate tank. Aggressive fish and fish that may transmit disease to each other should be segregated. As much as chromis look cool in a school, they should be isolated to prevent or at least isolate white band disease and vibrio which they are susceptible to. Clownfish also do best on their own to prevent the spread of brooklynella.

I've tried numerous methods of acclimation and have found that the PH correction method is the best for the long and short term health of the fish. Within a few hours the fish are up and swimming around, while the drip method leaves them laying on their side breathing rapidly for a few days. Once delicate gill tissue is damaged (ammonia burn or lack of oxygen) the fish may never fully recover.

Mr. Wilson, forgive me for being behind as I've spent the past week or so reading through this thread thoroughly and I'm still a couple weeks behind. I have to ask regarding your acclimation procedures because something about it makes no sense to me. You state that you should match the QT to the shipping water instead of bringing the shipping water to the QT parameters and that I get, it would be less stressful to the fish. However, you say not to open the bag due to pH swings until you put the fish directly into the QT. Maybe I'm missing something here, but how can you know the parameters of the shipping water without opening it and testing it? Then, through the testing period and then the period where you adjust the QT water, aren't you doing exactly what you said not to now that the fish is sitting in the shipping water in the open bag? Is there a step that I'm missing because I'm very interested in your method. I've always drip acclimated and have always had success, but when stocking a very large tank with a number of QT tanks it makes more sense to acclimate all of the tanks to the shipping water and then slowly correcting them.

Hope this makes sense, thank you for all of the help you provide to everyone in this thread!

Of course, I was waiting to catch up before saying it, but obviously Peter your tank is amazing. I can't wait to have a similar (though most definitely less costly system) someday.
 
A General Comment..........

A General Comment..........

I would like to say thank you to all of you who have taken the time to comment on my situation with so little information to help you. I am extremely touched and profoundly grateful for your observations and coaching. By now I had hoped that a document would surface that would offer more detail and clarity to my direction on the issue of flow. The author (Mr Wilson) has been tied up and I further made his challenge more complex by asking him to release the information in stages so that we could effectively manage the feedback in a disciplined fashion. He has been tied up and it looks like it will be late tonight or tomorrow before we can expect the detail. In the middle of this attempt to bring more discipline to the planning process as most of you know by now, I made the decision to expand the fish room effectively doubling its size. So we haven't really had the opportunity to rethink how we would take advantage of the expansion to leverage the new architecture. I can tell you that we do have a plan that addresses a number of the concerns but I am best positioned to respond after that planning detail has been given to all of you. Mr. Wilson is with the Bros Grimm as we speak, picking up supplies and equipment to help manage the water quality for the aquarium.

The feedback many of you have provided is hugely appreciated and I hope you see your efforts rewarded with visible and tangible acknowledgments in our forthcoming plans. I have gone to great lengths in this thread to answer each and every contributor from the outset of the build. This last grouping of comments on the flow issues does make it difficult as I know there has been progress made that has not been made public yet. Please bear with me and I will do my best to recognize each and every contribution to this issue as soon as I can. The information you have offered is enormously helpful and one way or another will be put to use. I am fortunate to be able to call you all friends. There will be a glass raised with and to all of you in Orlando and I hope many of you come to celebrate our progress with this build.

Peter
 
Hi Peter

I would be more concerned about flow through the tank than the "pressure" of the flow coming from the outlets. Without knowing too much about your plumbing, I think "head pressure" would seem to be reducing the efficiency of your pumps. Pushing the water up in to the tank is not adding to head pressure, as this is negated by the fact that the pumps are effectivley being gravity fed by the tank. Therefore the only thing increasing the head pressure is the plumbing itself, smaller diameter pipes will increase the speed of the flow, but also increase the head pressure. Keeping the size of the plumbing as large as the outlet of the pumps you are working with, the inlet diameter ideally larger, reducing the diameter only after it is tee'd off will help to keep the head pressure down, using 45's instead of 90 degree bends would also help, every bend in the plumbing will also add to head pressure, as will putting nozzles on your outlets, maximum flow will be more important than decreasing flow to increase the speed of flow from the outlet.
I'm certainly not an expert in fluid dynamics, just the research that I'm applying to my build.
P.S. - As long as you're being open minded to all plumbing/flow options at the moment, I have purchased 6 Tunze pumps for my 1450l (375 gal) tank to give me a potential flow rate of 108000 litres (28500 gal) an hour, or turning over the tank volume about 74 times an hour (way overkill, but the potential's there). These pumps can be controlled to work on alternate flow between the pumps, so you're only using about 50% to 70% of the collective pumps flow at any one time (I'm sure you've noticed these on Chingchai's tank!)
Sorry for the long post, it's not too often I feel I can add to the constructive process in this thread, but I hope this might help.
Cheers Ben :beer:

Troy, I think I know where your going with this, if he reduces the size of his lines when he branches off at tees , and uses 45 elbows for more sweeping bends he will be able to keep his pressure up (by eliminating back pressure). I think you may be on to something, but with out seeing a diagram of his closed loop system I can not say this for sure. I also think i might be more help if I could see some flow curves on these pupmps. Peter you should be able to get these from the pump maker.
 
Peter,

I feel it is we who should thank you for allowing us into your home.

Your generosity and gentle-manliness are somewhat rare in today's world and I for one am very appreciative that you allow us to partake in your endeavor. Some more than others obviously.

So, thank you sir!
 
Peter,

I feel it is we who should thank you for allowing us into your home.

Your generosity and gentle-manliness are somewhat rare in today's world and I for one am very appreciative that you allow us to partake in your endeavor. Some more than others obviously.

So, thank you sir!


Very well said Robb! Could not agree more......
 
Peter,

I just joined the Reef Central Crew but I have been following this thread since the beginning. I am unbelievably impressed with your ingenuity, creativity, dedication, and commitment; not only to your new tank but to staying open to the countless opinions and critics. I can't wait to see the finished product. I have learned invaluable knowledge from your thread and I hope to correct some of the issues that have recently plagued my current tank. I hope to one day have the financial ability to take on such an amazing task as you have. Thank you for sharing your journey.

-James-
 
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