Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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Very true, but if you are running a bacterial driven system eg Bio Pellets, ZeoVit, Vodka etc. a skimmer is a must to remove the bacteria from the system, to benefit from the nutrient reduction that this system provides.



Except for advice right :)

The problem arises when people apply a technology superficially. You cannot simply drop in a powerhead and check flow off or your list. Setting up a closed loop is even more specific. If you don't know what you are doing you cold have a flood and even worse flow dynamics.

A lot of the people who have traded in their closed loops had undersized intakes, intakes that were too close to the sand, small strainers that were allowed to clog, undersized plumbing (in & out), too many elbows & tees, poorly designed pumps, and poorly planned output/effluent orientation. Sequence Reef Flo pumps have a really poor pressure rating and have discouraged many CL owners. That 3600 GPH Dart pump is cut down to 1500 GPH by the time you push it through all those pipes and fittings (friction loss, not head loss). The limited selection in (magnet coupled) chemical pumps has made powerheads a viable choice for many reefers. Energy savings is another plus, but one that DC CL pumps also offer.

Oceansmotions wave devices are a great tool, but coupled with a VFD you really have something. I like penductors/eductors but for the return line rather than a closed loop as there is a trade off with back pressure loss and venturi gain.

I think the future trend will be laminar flow and pseudokreisels. Laminar flow can be achieved with an intake and return plenum at each end of the tank. A sheet of PVC or acrylic with many holes can be fed or drained by a sealed bulkhead for laminar flow. Adding rounded interior seams to a glass or acrylic tank will help create a pseudokreisel. Having your rock on "footings" will also help water pass under, along the bottom, and back up the front panel. An ornamental cement or foam bottom is also a good tool.

Another method I would like to try is a plenum at the bottom of the tank whereby a series of holes pumps water straight up to the surface zone by zone. This would keep detritus rising and falling in each zone in sequence.

The work of Ken Feldman on protein skimmer efficacy or lack there of is leading us closer to closed systems without sumps. If protein skimmers can only remove 20% of the TOC (total organic carbon), then maybe we should scrap them entirely and spend the (protein skimmer, surface skimmer, sump, plumbing, & return pump) money on better resources. That's a lot of money and energy that can be redirected to more efficient means of TOC reduction. Maybe our protein skimmers should be out in the garage with our bioballs and exercise equipment (as seen on TV):)

We can cut down on noise, energy consumption, and floods. We can start sleeping in the same beds as our wives and girlfriends and maybe even go on vacation. Protein skimmers are the only device that require us to have a sump. Sumps add to the system volume, but with a new automated water change system and frequent carbon use who needs it. You can still have extra system volume in a more convenient sealed drum and even grow benthic/cryptic inverts in them. You can take them offline and refill them for hassle-free water changes.

Refugiums can be run very efficiently in sealed canisters like the OceanClear model. I use a clear acrylic top for better light penetration. Ozone can still be added with a reactor or venturi. Heating, cooling, UV, and chemical media are all better served in a closed (vacuum) system. Header tanks (a filter tank located above the display tank) are another viable option.

Beneficial bacteria, calcium, and live food that has been depleted by protein skimmers can be kept in the food chain to feed our reef denizens. Skimmerless tanks have proven to have fewer cases of HHLE (hole in the head lateral erosion) and even reverse the symptoms of infected fish. There are also many reports of better polyp extension.
 
Very true, but if you are running a bacterial driven system eg Bio Pellets, ZeoVit, Vodka etc. a skimmer is a must to remove the bacteria from the system, to benefit from the nutrient reduction that this system provides.

Good point, but sponges are an excellent method of reducing bacteria populations.

I have tried a few skimmerless tanks but they always failed (nuisance algae, phytoplankton blooms), but I always went about it the wrong way. This was back in the days when Jack Kent (Kent Marine) convinced us that carbon should only be used for a few days every month or it would deplete trace elements. As it turns out we have an excess of trace elements & vitamins, or heavy metals as they should be called (Ron Shimek et al). Refugiums were also inefficient in the skimmerless tanks I tried and water changes were limited.

My next personal tank, which will be soon, will likely be skimmerless and sumpless, but I will implement other filtration methods to fill the gap.
 
what a lovely set-up, love the teeth :) i look foreward to following this thread!

I had the pleasure of meeting you at MACNA, well actually at the brazillian steakhouse (i sat across from you, i was with the profilux party), nice to put a forum name to the face :)
 
Good point, but sponges are an excellent method of reducing bacteria populations.

I have tried a few skimmerless tanks but they always failed (nuisance algae, phytoplankton blooms), but I always went about it the wrong way. This was back in the days when Jack Kent (Kent Marine) convinced us that carbon should only be used for a few days every month or it would deplete trace elements. As it turns out we have an excess of trace elements & vitamins, or heavy metals as they should be called (Ron Shimek et al). Refugiums were also inefficient in the skimmerless tanks I tried and water changes were limited.

My next personal tank, which will be soon, will likely be skimmerless and sumpless, but I will implement other filtration methods to fill the gap.


sure now you say this all.... I just spent thousands on my skimmers, sump etc.

Keep this topic going and explain what you mean by other filtration methods, I would be very curious to read about that
 
I believe it was from an article in Advanced Aquarists Magazine, Ken Feldman, skimmers removed 20-30% of total organic carbon (TOC) and there were no significant advantages between the skimmers tested, meaning they all performed equally well despite wide price differences.

I have found skimming to be a great benefit, especially in keeping nitrates in check, I'm sure there are probably equally effective ways or perhaps better methods of removing waste but I like to see it actually go down the drain! :)
 
mr.wilson said:
The problem arises when people apply a technology superficially. You cannot simply drop in a powerhead and check flow off or your list. Setting up a closed loop is even more specific. If you don't know what you are doing you cold have a flood and even worse flow dynamics.

A lot of the people who have traded in their closed loops had undersized intakes, intakes that were too close to the sand, small strainers that were allowed to clog, undersized plumbing (in & out), too many elbows & tees, poorly designed pumps, and poorly planned output/effluent orientation. Sequence Reef Flo pumps have a really poor pressure rating and have discouraged many CL owners. That 3600 GPH Dart pump is cut down to 1500 GPH by the time you push it through all those pipes and fittings (friction loss, not head loss). The limited selection in (magnet coupled) chemical pumps has made powerheads a viable choice for many reefers. Energy savings is another plus, but one that DC CL pumps also offer.
Where is all this stuff explained so that any hobbyist can apply basic rules to satisfy the requirements for any individual tank? It's all very well dissing the errors of the uninformed, but if you know better, please direct us to the required reading materials.

mr.wilson said:
I think the future trend will be laminar flow and pseudokreisels. Laminar flow can be achieved with an intake and return plenum at each end of the tank. A sheet of PVC or acrylic with many holes can be fed or drained by a sealed bulkhead for laminar flow. Adding rounded interior seams to a glass or acrylic tank will help create a pseudokreisel. Having your rock on "footings" will also help water pass under, along the bottom, and back up the front panel. An ornamental cement or foam bottom is also a good tool.
There should be a rule on this forum that you cannot introduce new words without explaining what the heck you are talking about or providing appropriate links. I was unable to find a meaningful description of pseudo kreisel or kreisel. I think I could keep you busy for a very long time.

mr.wilson said:
Refugiums can be run very efficiently in sealed canisters like the OceanClear model. I use a clear acrylic top for better light penetration. Ozone can still be added with a reactor or venturi. Heating, cooling, UV, and chemical media are all better served in a closed (vacuum) system. Header tanks (a filter tank located above the display tank) are another viable option.
Can you please explain or provide fuller descriptions? I am very much in favour of where you are going with all this stuff but can't find explanations at my level of understanding.

mr.wilson said:
Beneficial bacteria, calcium, and live food that has been depleted by protein skimmers can be kept in the food chain to feed our reef denizens. Skimmerless tanks have proven to have fewer cases of HHLE (hole in the head lateral erosion) and even reverse the symptoms of infected fish. There are also many reports of better polyp extension.
I have never wanted to use skimmers but for years all the experts have advised they must be used. Is there anywhere that all the alternate methods and systems you have mentioned are explained in as much detail as are the systems you denounce?

Thx,

Dave.M
 
I believe it was from an article in Advanced Aquarists Magazine, Ken Feldman, skimmers removed 20-30% of total organic carbon (TOC) and there were no significant advantages between the skimmers tested, meaning they all performed equally well despite wide price differences.

I have found skimming to be a great benefit, especially in keeping nitrates in check, I'm sure there are probably equally effective ways or perhaps better methods of removing waste but I like to see it actually go down the drain! :)

I remember the same article, yet I see noticeable differences between skimmers. I just switched from a spray injection to a cone needle wheel and ther is a remarkable difference in water clarity. I as run a dual bucket recirculator on my large system which I perceive to be better than the spray injection it replaced. I can't quantify my observations though. Just observations.

I'm not sure if this topic has been covered yet in this thread. I don't remember it. Peter, what kind of salt are you using on your system? I just switched from instant ocean to D&D and I've noticed a dramatic difference. I used IO for many years with few problems, but the new salt really added some luster to my tanks.

I recently also received some stats from the analysis of the top tier salts and there are some significant difference b/w them. This may turn out to be another controversial topic.
 
Stolen from Wikipedia...

"A kreisel tank is a circular aquarium designed to hold delicate animals such as jellyfish. These aquariums provide slow, circular water flow with a bare minimum of interior hardware, to prevent delicate animals from becoming injured by pumps or the tank itself. Originally a German design (kreisel means spinning top), the tank has no sharp corners, and keeps the housed animals away from the plumbing. Water moving into the tank gives a gentle flow that keeps the inhabitants suspended, and water leaving the tank is covered by a delicate screen that prevents the inhabitants from getting stuck. There are several types of kreisel tanks. In a true kreisel, a circular tank has a circular, submerged lid. Pseudokreisels have a curved bottom surface and a flat top surface, similar to the shape of either a "U" or a semicircle. Stretch kreisels or Langmuir kreisels are a "double gyre" kreisel design, where the tank length is at least twice the height. Using two downwelling inlets on both sides of the tank lets gravity create two gyres in the tank. A single downwelling inlet may be used in the middle as well. The top of a stretch kreisel may be open or closed with a lid. There may also be screens about midway down the sides of the tank, or at the top on the sides. It is possible to combine these designs; a circular shaped tank is used without a lid or cover, and the surface of the water acts as the continuation of circular flow. It is now possible to start a jellyfish aquarium at home as easily as a regular fish tank"
 
sure now you say this all.... I just spent thousands on my skimmers, sump etc.

Keep this topic going and explain what you mean by other filtration methods, I would be very curious to read about that

To oversimplify, here are some methods...

Biological:
- nitrification (bacteria on substrate surfaces)
- denitrification (bacteria & in-fauna/sand critters in substrate internal structure)
- assimilation (microbes/bacterial film on coral & algae tissue)
- nutrient export (mangroves, algae, and coral harvesting)

Chemical:
- carbon (ROX type is faster)
- granular ferric oxide (GFO phosphate removal)
- aluminum oxide (phosphate removal)
- chemipure (TOC & heavy metal removal)
- polyfilter (TOC & heavy metal removal)
- zeolite (TOC & heavy metal removal)
- protein skimming (TOC & heavy metal removal)
- ozone (oxidation of bacteria, parasites, & TOC/total organic carbon including particulate & dissolved)
- ultraviolet sterilization (oxidation of bacteria, parasites, & TOC/total organic carbon including particulate & dissolved)
- water changes (nutrient export)

Mechanical:
- filter bags/socks
- cartridges
- sponges & pads
- physical removal (settling & siphoning)

Many reef aquarists only employ a few of these methods or do so to a limited extent. Carbon levels are typically elevated in marine aquaria and cause stress to corals and feed nuisance algae. Granular activated carbon (GAC) has proven to be the most effective method of TOC export, removing about 80% at a faster rate than protein skimming. Water changes can remove the remaining excess nutrients and organics as needed.

There is no overwhelming benefit to removing a protein skimmer that is in place, but considering it is the least efficient and most expensive & labour intensive device available, we should think twice about where to put our resources when designing a new tank. The marketing machine has sold us on the newest skimmer trends for years. That manufactured demand focus has now shifted to LED lighting. As John Tullock says "Less technology, more biology".
 
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Where is all this stuff explained so that any hobbyist can apply basic rules to satisfy the requirements for any individual tank? It's all very well dissing the errors of the uninformed, but if you know better, please direct us to the required reading materials.

Jake Adams wrote the best and likely only articles on flow in reef aquaria. The basics of what we need are common knowledge, but their implementation is hard to find info on. You can find Jakes articles if you do a search in Advanced Aquarist Magazine. I posted them earlier in the thread.


There should be a rule on this forum that you cannot introduce new words without explaining what the heck you are talking about or providing appropriate links. I was unable to find a meaningful description of pseudo kreisel or kreisel. I think I could keep you busy for a very long time.

I usually explain acronyms and terms, but it was late so a few slip through. These are jellyfish tank and fish & invert larval rearing terms. Basically, they are tanks that keep the inhabitants suspended. Some spin the water like a washing machine from side to side, while others rotate the water from back to front. A more realistic looking version sends water down each end of the tank toward the bottom where it hits a smooth bend/transition. As each wall of water reaches in the centre they collide and water is forced up the middle. Kreisels have four rounded internal corners to direct flow in a circular motion, while pseudokreisels have only two (full pipe vs. half pipe).

In my opinion, the most useful configuration for a reef tank would be a pseudokreisel that sprays water down the back wall from the top, then hits a smooth transition at the bottom seam so it can efficiently travel under the reef with minimal friction loss. Building the reef on an eggcrate platform or on pillars will assist in reducing friction. A matching curve transition on the bottom front seem helps direct the water up the front panel to the surface where it can move surfactants (surface active agents - the floaters that protein skimmers grab) to the overflow across the back (coast-to-coast with no teeth). This kind of flow dynamic would require only 10 x the volume of the tank flow and would keep detritus suspended indefinitely. One thing it does not support is variable flow, but it could easily be reversed with an OM 2-Way wave maker. The direction of the water water spin can be alternated between clockwise and counter-clockwise every few minutes. A VFD (variable flow device) would help surge the tank, free up trapped detritus and create more random patterns for coral feeding and subsequent growth.

I have never wanted to use skimmers but for years all the experts have advised they must be used. Is there anywhere that all the alternate methods and systems you have mentioned are explained in as much detail as are the systems you denounce?

Ken Feldman's articles on protein skimming and activated carbon use in Advanced Aquarist Magazine has hard numbers on both. The water polishing abilities of benthic/cryptic invertebrates is also well documented. Some of the other methods of filtration are more mysterious as they don't have strong advertising campaigns and the books that describe them in detail are older. The forum world has allowed some information to slip through the cracks.

Peter and I were talking to Charles Delbeek at MACNA, and Peter has him convinced to convert the PDFs of his books, co-authored by Julian Sprung, to online format. This will make the information more accessible and give them some encouragement to keep writing :)
 
It sounds like you have the common "throw everything at it til it works" approach. It seemed to work for your nuisance algae problem and I'm sure it works with your flow.

Our goal here in the thread is to establish a succinct, clean, and well thought out method of keeping a reef tank. There are no rule books and no instruction manual that comes with your tank, so we have to make do with "best practices" of the time.

It's entirely possible that you could change your closed loop pump and adjust the angles of the ins & outs and get the flow you need. It is also possible that big prop pumps will get you there too.

Fish usually stop jumping after the first few weeks, but if they are fighting they may go carpet surfing.


You sure have a knack for summing it up Shawn! I guess I need to do some homework on my under utilized closed loop and see if I can fix that before dropping another $700 quick fix. I'll shoot you a PM so not to clutter Peters thread.

On the jumping fish, I have a collection of wrasses with a mix of males and females so there's always positioning and chasing going on with some surface cruising!
 
There is no overwhelming benefit to removing a protein skimmer that is in place, but considering it is the least efficient and most expensive & labour intensive device available, we should think twice about where to put our resources when designing a new tank. .

As the article Elliot referred to illustrated, carbon was better at removing DOC than a protein skimmer was. However, the article would disagree with skimming being the "most expensive" positing that bubbles are cheap...
 
I remember the same article, yet I see noticeable differences between skimmers. I just switched from a spray injection to a cone needle wheel and ther is a remarkable difference in water clarity. I as run a dual bucket recirculator on my large system which I perceive to be better than the spray injection it replaced. I can't quantify my observations though. Just observations.

I'm not sure if this topic has been covered yet in this thread. I don't remember it. Peter, what kind of salt are you using on your system? I just switched from instant ocean to D&D and I've noticed a dramatic difference. I used IO for many years with few problems, but the new salt really added some luster to my tanks.

I recently also received some stats from the analysis of the top tier salts and there are some significant difference b/w them. This may turn out to be another controversial topic.

I too have noticed differences between skimmers as have many others on this board. I also would have guessed my skimmer was removing more than 20-30% of organics, so maybe my observation skills need a tune up :)

Mr. Wilson, I have often thought of designing a BB tank that has a bottom shaped like a funnel leading to a valved large pipe that would collect all detritus falling to the bottom. Cleaning would entail opening the valve allowing the settled detritus to escape to a bucket with a screen to catch any inadvertent livestock in the stream. Why fight gravity?
 
As the article Elliot referred to illustrated, carbon was better at removing DOC than a protein skimmer was. However, the article would disagree with skimming being the "most expensive" positing that bubbles are cheap...

Bubbles are cheap if you have an air-driven DIY protein skimmer, but most aquarists opt for a $1200 model with one or two water pumps. A mesh bag for carbon is much more economical.
 
Bubbles are cheap if you have an air-driven DIY protein skimmer, but most aquarists opt for a $1200 model with one or two water pumps. A mesh bag for carbon is much more economical.

this thread is making my head spinning...great undertaking by mr. nineball,great support from you..:thumbsup:
being a novice i couldn't understand good many things...but anyway what i finding is that bottomline is proper filtration procedure makes protein skimmer unnecessary...if it is true,can you give me some links which are good and simple,for beginners.... :fish1:
 
I too have noticed differences between skimmers as have many others on this board. I also would have guessed my skimmer was removing more than 20-30% of organics, so maybe my observation skills need a tune up :)

Mr. Wilson, I have often thought of designing a BB tank that has a bottom shaped like a funnel leading to a valved large pipe that would collect all detritus falling to the bottom. Cleaning would entail opening the valve allowing the settled detritus to escape to a bucket with a screen to catch any inadvertent livestock in the stream. Why fight gravity?

Ken Feldman had a nice demonstration in his presentation at MACNA. He showed two pictures of a skimmer cup. One was rich and dark brown with dry foam, while the other one had opaque light brown liquid and wet bubbles. The audience agreed that the darker skimmate was superior. He then disclosed that he used 2.6 oz of coffee grounds and some liquid soap he bubbled with a straw in the "efficient" cup. He placed a dime beside the dried coffee to put it into perspective. The "inefficient" skimmate was created with 10 oz of brown sugar and a little less effort with the straw in the liquid soap. The seemingly less efficient skimmate had five times more "stuff" by dry weight and the dime looked more like a peso next to it.

Unless you have a fancy TOC analyzer, you have no reasonable method of measuring your protein skimmers abilities. There is an easier method where PAR readings can be compared, but even this is out of reach for most hobbyists.

A healthy substrate can oxidize/assimilate detritus as quickly as it forms, providing your flow delivers most of it to the corals and filtration. There is usually a settling point(s) with most systems. It is possible to create a cone that would collect and export detritus automatically. Just make sure fish and inverts don't get exported too:)
 
Mr. Wilson.....just a quick note to say the program appears to be running now with a minute of max power every 15 mins.

Peter
 
auem said:
this thread is making my head spinning
Yours and mine both.

I have been reading all the linked articles and previous forum discussions all day. While I have read many of the articles before, I have not seen them all put together this way. IOW I've got all the pieces but haven't seen how they fit together. When I win the lottery tonight I will have to sit down with Mr. Wilson to help me finalize my plans for a 10K gal beginner's tank.

Dave.M
 
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