Could someone please explain the importance of enough live rock

[outy]

Technically, you don't need any LR. Yes, nitrifying bacteria will colonize all surfaces and other forms of media can be substituted. And a deep sand bed will do the trick as well,

.

That was my only point.

I run LR myself.

It's not good advice for most aquarists.

You may misunderstand the context of my reply.

I'm not telling anyone not to run LR.

I am however simply stating its not needed. It was an old school method of filtration and nitrate management that does work and many used this tried and true method.

Many people can use dead rock and BB tank and grow the wheels off SPS successfully.

many people today are sterilizing the LR in chemical baths trying to cook out the P. Nothing I would ever do but its show how little importance there really is on LR itself.

 

[outy]

, I can tell you live rock is vital in a mainstream reef tank.

How so?

Its exactly like saying sand is vital, and we all know it is not vital.

Its like saying you cannot take dead rock and start a tank and be successful, and we know that is just wrong.

LR is not vital. Its now a personal choice.

 

[slief]

Technically, you don't need any LR. Yes, nitrifying bacteria will colonize all surfaces and other forms of media can be substituted. And a deep sand bed will do the trick as well, but it sure isn't for everyone & has its own special risks & rewards for specialized needs. If you can sustain the proper bacterial species in the correct quantities for a given bio load easily & reliably, all will be well. It seems that some of those crazy tanks on the TV shows don't use LR but that's another story.

But why would you want to go this route? It's not good advice for most aquarists. Especially those starting out. Sentences 2,3,4 & 5 are pretty far out there IMO.

IN DEFENCE & PRAISE OF LIVE ROCK:
-The typical aquascape provides an incredibly huge total surface area for bacteria; far more than could be achieved easily with other methods.
-The interior of good fluffy live rock is superior for habitat for anerobic bacteria, the key to low nitrate levels.
-The habitat LR provides is excellent for sustaining microfauna which provides interest, food & detritus control.
-Live rock provides essential hiding & sleeping spaces for fish & inverts. Many could not survive without it due to stress & predation.
-Live rock is where most corals live & grow. No live rock no reef keeping hobby!
-Use of LR in some fashion will usually give the most pleasing look.

There's just no downside to LR. When Mr Eng "discovered" live rock 40+ years ago really is what made the hobby possible for most people. I can only think of a precious few examples where an aquarist woukd not want LR...maybe some special FO tanks, jellyfish, cuttlefish tanks or something exotic like that. QT tanks - OK. But as an average reefer, I can tell you live rock is vital in a mainstream reef tank.

Very well said. You echo my sentiments exactly. Having owned countless tanks over 30 years, some with lots of live rock and others with much less, the tanks with lots of live rock always seem to have less or no issues with nitrates regardless of stocking or feeding. My current 480g display is one such example. While I do have a dedicated good sized remote DSB, my display is mostly bare bottom and has several hundred pounds of very mature Fiji live rock. The tank has been up and running for nearly 20 years and the live rock has been a part of the system for just as long. The main display has over 50 fish in it. Many of which are over 8" long and very heavily fed. I have absolutely no detectable nitrates. Never have either. I also have no nuisance algae issues and I don't even do large water changes. In fact, in a system volume of about 650 gallons, I change out 5 gallons a day which is less than 25% a month. No large water changes ever nor do I carbon dose. I attribute my tanks health to the amount of live rock, a good skimmer, great flow that prevents detritus build up and perhaps part of the tanks health is due in part to the DSB which measures 36"x30". It has about 2" of live fiji mud, 2" of live sand and a bunch of live rock rubble mixed in. The DSB is in a dedicated refugium downstream from my main sump and has been up and running untouched for over 6 years now. I don't ever mess with it. There is some macro in there including chaeto which I pretty much neglect and just let that refugium do it's thing and grow pods by thousands as well as anything else that happens to grow in it. It's just one more component of my tanks ecosystem. I do however run four 7" 200 micro felt filter socks which are changed out every 7 to 10 days when they start backing up. They keep my sump and refugium detritus free which eliminates the need for maintenance in the refugium and sump.

Our tanks are mini ecosystems and the bacterial surfaces for aerobic and anaerobic bacteria play a critical role in the systems ability to covert waste and nutrients. After all, a healthy system depends on bacteria and the most important bacteria in our tanks colonates within the substrate and rocks in our systems. Sure, you can get away with less live rock but there is a point where many end up resorting to massive water changes or carbon dosing.

 

[outy]

remote DSB.

a good skimmer

2" of live fiji mud, 2" of live sand

macro in there including chaeto

7" 200 micro felt filter socks

I change out 5 gallons a day

Not picking on you, just playing devils advocate.

If the LR is so effective, why all the other means of N and P removal as well as places to house anaerobic/non bacteria?

I think with your set up you could place dead rock in their and have the exact same results.

 

[slief]

Not picking on you, just playing devils advocate.

If the LR is so effective, why all the other means of N and P removal as well as places to house anaerobic/non bacteria?

I think with your set up you could place dead rock in their and have the exact same results.

Given that dead rock eventually become live rock over time, you are correct. The advantage of quality live rock is that it's already seeded with a wide range of bacteria. The downside is that some of that bacteria will die during transport. Especially anaerobic bacteria. This is one of the reasons why curing is important as die off on uncured live rock isn't just limited to the life on the outside of the rock. That said, using live rock on a new system has the advantage of shortening the or even eliminating the initial cycles that are common with new systems. Starting with dead rock can require a year or more for a new tank to fully "mature" in addition to the initial cycles where as starting with quality live rock can obviously shorten the time it takes for a system to truly become mature.

 

[outy]

Given that dead rock eventually become live rock over time, you are correct. The advantage of quality live rock is that it's already seeded with a wide range of bacteria. The downside is that some of that bacteria will die during transport. Especially anaerobic bacteria. This is one of the reasons why curing is important as die off on uncured live rock isn't just limited to the life on the outside of the rock. That said, using live rock on a new system has the advantage of shortening the or even eliminating the initial cycles that are common with new systems. Starting with dead rock can require a year or more for a new tank to fully "mature" in addition to the initial cycles where as starting with quality live rock can obviously shorten the time it takes for a system to truly become mature.

Agreed.

Ive had my LR over 25 years as well, and when conditions were bad. I puled it out and soaked it in the dark for a few months to clean it up. Worked great.

When I switched to my 215g I'm sure the LR seeded and cycled the new tank almost instantly. I waited 3 days and the stocked the tank.

 

[Reef Frog]

How so?

Its exactly like saying sand is vital, and we all know it is not vital.

Its like saying you cannot take dead rock and start a tank and be successful, and we know that is just wrong.

LR is not vital. Its now a personal choice.

I did indeed misread your post. I was not trying to say one must or even should start with actual "live" rock that was harvested from the ocean. Dry rock and maybe even some of these new manufactured products are fine and serve all the same purposes once cycled & mature. They of course can host all the bacteria & microfauna you could want as we all know. Just comes down to personal preference.

I was debating "No Rock" vs "Rock" in the aquascape. And advicating for having rock of some kind as opposed to a bare tank. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Dan_P]

Just to be a pain and point out the obvious, no one really knows whether live rock is all that important because there is very little data on any other material, such as silica sand and granite stones. The conjecture that live rock is important and all the arguements supporting the conjecture are reasonable. The anecdotal data and testimonials are comforting, but the lack of data really makes this all a philosophical debate. A debate concerning belief.

With the improvement in analytical techniques, it has been shown in marine sediments that creating a low oxygen or oxygen free zone for denitrifying bacteria to exist does not need deep sand beds or live rock channels. Centimeters not inches of sand are needed.

 

[MadCnty]

When I worked at a lfs the rule of thumb was 1# per gallon... On my new build I went with dry rock, as it will become live rock, and will not have the unwanted hitchhikers that I am trying to avoid... Dry rock = longer cycle but I can deal with that to have what I want once cycled... It all comes down to what one wants and what one can wait for... This hobby is all about time...

 

[Reef Frog]

Hmm I thought the research on marine bacteria in ocean rock was a well researched topic after all these years. I remember skimming through credible journal articles & abstracts that go into great specie detail in the subject. Science also seems to agree that bacteria of all kinds is on the surface of everything, everywhere.

 

[MadCnty]

Hmm I thought the research on marine bacteria in ocean rock was a well researched topic after all these years. I remember skimming through credible journal articles & abstracts that go into great specie detail in the subject. Science also seems to agree that bacteria of all kinds is on the surface of everything, everywhere.

This is true in the ocean, but tanks need to cycle to get the good bacteria...

 

[MadCnty]

Maybe I am misreading what you have posted but beneficial bacteria will manifest itself on all of the substrate either live or dry, if you give it enough time...

 

[outy]

I did indeed misread your post. I was not trying to say one must or even should start with actual "live" rock that was harvested from the ocean. Dry rock and maybe even some of these new manufactured products are fine and serve all the same purposes once cycled & mature. They of course can host all the bacteria & microfauna you could want as we all know. Just comes down to personal preference.

I was debating "No Rock" vs "Rock" in the aquascape. And advicating for having rock of some kind as opposed to a bare tank. Sorry for any confusion.

Your all good

Just bored and a enjoy details :bdaysmile:

 

[outy]

Maybe I am misreading what you have posted but beneficial bacteria will manifest itself on all of the substrate either live or dry, if you give it enough time...

Correct.

 

[outy]

This is true in the ocean, but tanks need to cycle to get the good bacteria...

Not always a full cycle, had a tank cycle almost instantly before because I added enough LR and my sump and skimmer was already broken in.

 

[Subsea]

Just to be a pain and point out the obvious, no one really knows whether live rock is all that important because there is very little data on any other material, such as silica sand and granite stones. The conjecture that live rock is important and all the arguements supporting the conjecture are reasonable. The anecdotal data and testimonials are comforting, but the lack of data really makes this all a philosophical debate. A debate concerning belief.

With the improvement in analytical techniques, it has been shown in marine sediments that creating a low oxygen or oxygen free zone for denitrifying bacteria to exist does not need deep sand beds or live rock channels. Centimeters not inches of sand are needed.

Dan,
Actually, Rob Toonen a PHD marine biologist, did a comparison between live rock (Marsall & Tonga), dsb, shallow sand bed, Jaubert Plenumn 20 years ago. Ammonia was added to all tanks. All four methods controlled nitrates equally over a three month period.

What impressed me the most about the test was the tank with live rock was so crowded, nothing could have been added to it. For me, that means from a volumn point of view, a shallow sandbed provides the most effective nitrogen bio filtration.

I use a small amount of diver collected live rock for biodiversity and I don't mean bacteria only. I also have run macro lagoons with no live rock that are heavy with gorgonians, nps, LPS, mushrooms and other softies.

For certain all these techniques work. Each with its own pros and cons. Hobbiest match techniques with there personnal preferences.

I say viva la difference.

 

[tg1966]

Everyone has an opinion. Make your own. I have massive amounts of pukani in all my tanks along with 3" sand beds. Zero ammonia, nitrate, nitrate with heavy bio loads. I do it for the look of natural reefs. Not a fan of the "minimalist" looks.

 

[mitchb]

+1 on building a Reef in our Reef Aquariums. I too don't like the minimalist look, you are limited with placements for new corals and fish do much better with hiding places and overhangs, similar to their natural environment.

 

[slief]

Maybe I am misreading what you have posted but beneficial bacteria will manifest itself on all of the substrate either live or dry, if you give it enough time...

While this is true, starting with mature living rock whether it's cultured. from another system or from the ocean reduces the amount of time it takes for a system to fully mature. If you use dead/dry rock, it can easily take a year or more for the system to become mature. Live rock typically has the advantage of containing a diverse range of bacteria that would otherwise take a long time develop on it's own. This goes well beyond the bacteria that forms in the initial cycle.

 

[Reef Frog]

Dan,
Actually, Rob Toonen a PHD marine biologist, did a comparison between live rock (Marsall & Tonga), dsb, shallow sand bed, Jaubert Plenumn 20 years ago. Ammonia was added to all tanks. All four methods controlled nitrates equally over a three month period.

What impressed me the most about the test was the tank with live rock was so crowded, nothing could have been added to it. For me, that means from a volumn point of view, a shallow sandbed provides the most effective nitrogen bio filtration.

I use a small amount of diver collected live rock for biodiversity and I don't mean bacteria only. I also have run macro lagoons with no live rock that are heavy with gorgonians, nps, LPS, mushrooms and other softies.

For certain all these techniques work. Each with its own pros and cons. Hobbiest match techniques with there personnal preferences.

I say viva la difference.

Right! Whatever works! It makes sense when you think about it. The surface area in a 3"+ sand bed with its billions of sand grains, each covered in bacteria, is enormous and likely larger than what you'd find in a typical live rock structure in the same tank. And it's largely anaerobic so it's quite capable of processing nitrates. But both contribute to the process of course.

But over the long term it seems that a deep sand bed is a lot harder to manage correctly when compared to good live rock in the average aquariasrs hands. Not impossible, just more do's and don'ts associated with it. I never had one but it seems like there is more maintenance involved as it matures. I say just be sure you understand the pros & cons of each approach. One nice thing about a DSB is the amount of food it produces and the ability to keep some unique animals. If you like conchs, yellow spot jawfish, wrasses & drafonettes a DSB is very appealing.