Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

[Scrubber_steve]

Ok Twinfallz, can you distill that down a little for me. I am not a scientist nor claim to be scientific in my reef keeping. If I'm understanding you correctly then when using algae in the aquarium, say in a macro fuge, we should stay away from red and brown algae as they increase the risk of virulence?

I would stick with green algae.

Look, in regards to an aquarium were talking about utilising algae in a very controlled manner. It is harvested & maintained at a certain level, not just allowed to grow & grow, & it is isolated from the display tank.

Consider "“ an algae scrubber screen, for example, originally starts out as a piece of plastic mesh completely devoid of algae. By doing nothing more than providing the correct light spectrum & intensity, and water flow, the screen eventually is covered in an emerald green filamentous algae. The appearance of this emerald green filamentous algae naturally occurs when the screen is positioned in an optimal environment "“ light, co2, water, nutrients.
Soon after my scrubber was established the problem hair algae, and then red cyano I had in my display tank disappeared because the optimal environment was no-longer in the display.

Growing algae as a filtering method has a lot of positives & depending on the type of algae, possibly some negatives. One negative people like to mention is allelochemicals released by some algae, in certain circumstances. The effects of these toxins is minimal & typically targets other algae species & problematic dinoflagellate eg - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988315001328
These toxins have little effect on animals or bacteria, and are hydrophobic, so they are easily removed from the water using activated carbon. But also consider the toxins released by corals, especially soft corals. Should we stop having coral aquariums?

If were talking about exudates released from algae and corals, apparently some sugars contained in exudates are better than others in promoting virulent strains of water column bacteria, and some algae release more of these bad sugars than others. But if we're talking water column bacteria counts, in the aquarium, it seems that more delicate species of sps corals like low levels of water column bacteria whether or not their virulent. LPS and softies don't appear to care so much.

Skimmers, activated carbon, UV, water changes - all typically utilised in the hobby, make the "˜possible' problems of allelochemicals & virulent bacteria a non-problem.
In my opinion the positives of utilising algae far outweigh the possible negatives.

Make algae your friend.

 

[karimwassef]

I would add - make algae and sponges your friends!

 

[Steve Tyree]

TwinFallz,

This is the article I was referring too. But again, this is a cryptic thread. Not an algae thread. lol.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635233/#!po=66.8675

Oops. Just noticed your article was same, just linked through Nature. The green algae Halimeda was tested. Not the fleshy macroalgae. Halimeda is fine around corals and has some calcium within it. So like I said, We have to test specific fleshy macroalgae.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

TwinFallz,

This is the article I was referring too. But again, this is a cryptic thread. Not an algae thread. lol.

Hi Steve.

This thread started as a pro cryptic sponge & sea squirt thread but appears to me to have evolved somewhat into an anti-algae filtration thread using broad generalisations, incompatible assumptions, & some completely baseless conclusions.

It can be argued that many of the positive functions of cryptic sponges in natural reefs can be utilized in an aquarium. But there is also the possibility of some negatives when keeping sponges in an aquarium that would not apply in the open ocean.

You have to weigh up the positives & negatives. Consider the possible negatives & design a system to deal with them. Use what works for you.
:spin1:

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Besides calcium carbonate rock what other substrates will cryptic sponges grow on?
Will they take to glass or plastic for example?

 

[karimwassef]

Mine grow on glass

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

Oh and I also figured out why mine are cryptic... once I removed the rock covering them, algae started to grow on and in them. Not long hair or macro- just a local discoloration. Not enough for fish to even nibble on, but I can tell that the tiny dots of algae in their tissue are probably clogging them up already.

It doesn't look like they have the same defenses as coral in terms of slime, chemicals or defensive organs to keep algae off their tissues. Wonder how photosynthetic sponges do it.

 

[Steve Tyree]

Karim,

Sponges have a difficult time in the Exposed DT area. Mainly due to the particulates. Exposed Zone sponges tend to have different structures then cryptic cave sponges. The sponges on the bottoms of rocks in the DT tend to come and go. Cryptic sponges will grow on just about anything.

 

[Steve Tyree]

TwinFallz,

Actually it was the constant posting about algae on a cryptic thread that promoted the retorts. This is basically why I do not spend much time on forums. Threads get hijacked. Gets to be impossible to keep on topic.

And yeah, like algae, sponges have many different capabilities. You do not want boring sponges in a coral tank. Also do not think exposed zone sponges work well due to collection and transportation issues. That is why I use cryptic cave sponges. And with respect to algae I prefer coralline algae. You cannot lump all green algae under Halimeda. The fleshy macro algae species they tested was not green, but it was a fleshy algae.

 

[karimwassef]

I'll take a picture. This stuff wasn't just under rocks. The zone in the picture is a very low but consistent flow area in the tank. Open but hard to access and always dark. Isn't that cryptic?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

TwinFallz,

Actually it was the constant posting about algae on a cryptic thread that promoted the retorts. This is basically why I do not spend much time on forums. Threads get hijacked. Gets to be impossible to keep on topic.

Hi steve.

Yes, I agree. I would like this thread to concentrate on cryptic zones & sponges.

Are cryptic sponges selective in their take up of DOC considering sugars can vary ?

Your friend in the Philippines' unique filter feeder cryptic zone? Are you able to expand on this?
Has he created some sort of large surface area grid structure where lots of sponges can proliferate in an otherwise small sump?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

steve; can I get your best link for info to establishing a sponge cryptic zone -

 

[Subsea]

Hi steve.

Yes, I agree. I would like this thread to concentrate on cryptic zones & sponges.

Are cryptic sponges selective in their take up of DOC considering sugars can vary ?

Your friend in the Philippines' unique filter feeder cryptic zone? Are you able to expand on this?
Has he created some sort of large surface area grid structure where lots of sponges can proliferate in an otherwise small sump?

As I just converted a 25 year old mud/macro refugium into a mud cryptic zone refugium, I am very interested in this topic. With respect to a large surface area grid structure, eggcrate comes to mind. I used it over the mud to keep rock aerobic when I converted macro to cryptic. Instead of rock in refugium, eggcrate, that is used as a light diffusers, could be stacked up. I choose porous rock because “Pods need a home”. I think eggcrate would maximinesurfsace area

It is my goal to provide a food web for NPS corals. Some deep water gorgonions are absolutely gorgeous. If I get confident enough, I will try a Carnation coral.

PS. I just purchased two ebooks on sponges from Steve.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

As I just converted a 25 year old mud/macro refugium into a mud cryptic zone refugium, I am very interested in this topic. With respect to a large surface area grid structure, eggcrate comes to mind. I used it over the mud to keep rock aerobic when I converted macro to cryptic. Instead of rock in refugium, eggcrate, that is used as a light diffusers, could be stacked up. I choose porous rock because "œPods need a home". I think eggcrate would maximinesurfsace area

It is my goal to provide a food web for NPS corals. Some deep water gorgonions are absolutely gorgeous. If I get confident enough, I will try a Carnation coral.

PS. I just purchased two ebooks on sponges from Steve.

Yeh I was thinking of stacked eggcrate.

two ebooks hey. whats the address?

 

[karimwassef]

I have a dedicated cryptic that I'll be dismantling in a couple of weeks... we'll see what's in there.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I have a dedicated cryptic that I'll be dismantling in a couple of weeks... we'll see what's in there.

Sounds good.
I'm guessing you'll be photo filing the evidence?

 

[karimwassef]

Yes. Going to try video

 

[Timfish]

Hi Tim; Sorry, but I believe that everything I wrote contradicts Delbeek and Sprung, if they suggested that the Algae Turf Farm had anything at all to do with water quality issues in the Coral Reef Exhibit. Its a complete falacy. . . . :wavehand:

Hi steve.

Yes, I agree. I would like this thread to concentrate on cryptic zones & sponges . . .

I too would like to see Steve's thread stay on topic. I am happy to continue our discussion on my skimmerless thread. Karrim since you are thinking of installing an ATS you may be interested in as well. Among others, one item, Twinfallz, in the two links you posted that caught my eye was this qoute for removing the ats "and inorganic nutrient levels were low." One thing I've learned is not having enough inorganics is as much a water quality issue as having too much.

 

[Timfish]

I found this article by Haas.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0027973


Quote:

turf algae produced nearly twice as much DOC per unit surface area than the other benthic producers (14.0±2.8 µmol h−1 dm−2), stimulating rapid bacterioplankton growth (0.044±0.002 log10 cells h−1) and concomitant oxygen drawdown (0.16±0.05 µmol L−1 h−1 dm−2).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's probably it. Thanks for finding it!

 

[karimwassef]

I've been running ATSs for years now. No issues.

The next one will be 1/4 the size of a volleyball court.