Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

Twinfallz, in the two links you posted that caught my eye was this qoute for removing the ats "and inorganic nutrient levels were low." One thing I've learned is not having enough inorganics is as much a water quality issue as having too much.

Timfish; from your statement above, you are now misrepresenting what is actually stated in these papers in what appears to be an attempt to confirm your baseless conclusion that the Alage Turf Farm was removed for water quality issues.
The "and inorganic nutrient levels were low" you cut and pasted from 'The Coral Reef Exhibit at Reef HQ Aquarium, Townsville, Australia: Technical operations and water quality', was not referencing the ATF.

Here's what was said in the paper, Chapter 26, quote -

The Estuarine Water period (post-2002)
Water source and exchange

A significant shift occurred during 2002 when
the aquarium was closed to the public for almost
five months to maintain and upgrade the facility.
Based on the analysis of existing practices and
resulting low coral survival, this period was also
used as an important opportunity to modify
CRE operations, starting with its water source
and exchange. The driving forces behind these
changes were the obvious low coral survival
rates and the fact that calcium levels (~ 250
mg Ca2+.L-1, point readings available only) and
inorganic nutrient levels were low.

end quote.

The "and inorganic nutrient levels were low" statement is in reference to the change from pristein off shore water collection to Ross Creek water collection, not the ATF.

Further, in relation to the ATF, the paper chapter 26 states the following -

The Estuarine Water period (post-2002)
Filtration
During the same time period as the change from
oceanic water to estuarine water was occurring,
CRE filtration philosophy shifted away from the
Algal Turf Farm towards the implementation of
large-scale protein skimmers. Following several
water quality monitoring trials where sections
of the ATF were turned off, it was determined
that the ATF effects on CRE filtration were
negligible, especially when compared to the
CRE’s internal algal mass productivity. The
ATF was considered obsolete and taken offline
permanently from the CRE in late 2002


Further, from -

Ecological purification in the captive reef – natural approaches to water quality management Ashley Sharp Zoological Society of London

Algal nutrient management

Case studies

In a case study conducted within the large reef exhibit (2.8 million litres) at Reef HQ, Townsville, Australia, the total biomass of algae supported directly on the ATS screens was approximately 0.5 % of the total algal biomass within the system (Pecorelli et al., in press). Consequently when the ATS was taken offline, the ability of the mesocosm to process nitrite and nitrate was not significantly affected. Indeed orthophosphate levels were significantly lower after the removal of the ATS, suggesting that the rupturing of the algal cells during harvesting was causing orthophosphate to return to the system.

Nevertheless, the nutrient processing capabilities of algae within any exhibit will depend upon a multitude of factors such as grazing pressure and light levels, therefore the use of remote vessels such as the ATS screens and refugia remain extremely useful tools to optimize algal growth.

https://www.burgerszoo.com/media/560510/chapter-11.pdf

The Algae Turf Farm was not removed from the Coral Reef Exhibit because of water quality issues.

The Algae Turf Farm was removed because the labour intensive managment of 70 scrubber units could not be justified when they only accounted for 0.5% of the total algal biomass within the system .

I'm not interested in flogging a dead horse any further, here or on your skimmerless thread.
 
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So I really didn't do anything to intentionally cultivate my cryptic sponges like I've done with my algae scrubbers...

but if I did want to create a monster cryptic sponge mass - what's the best way to do that assuming that I have no restrictions (space, energy, etc...)?
 
Twin,
Both ebooks together cost $16. Go to reeffarmers.com.

thanks subsea, but I can only find - Volume 2 of the CMAT or Captive Maintenance Advanced Techniques series is titled "The Cryptic Zonal System - Expanding the Zonal Reproduction of Tropical Reef Platforms" for $14.99 US.

Can you help me out with the link you used to buy 'both ebooks' for $16

thanks
 
TwinFallz,

Actually it was the constant posting about algae on a cryptic thread that promoted the retorts. This is basically why I do not spend much time on forums. Threads get hijacked. Gets to be impossible to keep on topic.

And yeah, like algae, sponges have many different capabilities. You do not want boring sponges in a coral tank. Also do not think exposed zone sponges work well due to collection and transportation issues. That is why I use cryptic cave sponges. And with respect to algae I prefer coralline algae. You cannot lump all green algae under Halimeda. The fleshy macro algae species they tested was not green, but it was a fleshy algae.

Steve,
Due to the complex nature of food webs in our reef aquarium, I like understanding the effects of different participants on each other. The dynamics of competition for nutrients is an art to reefkeeping that I enjoy. I have used macros in a utilitarian capacity for 45 years. I recently read a scientific paper that described the dynamics between a hard coral, herbivore fish and macro algae. When the macro was grown in a meadow of its own kind, it grew distasteful to predatation by herbivores. When a hard coral was put into their proximity, the macro algae chemistry changed to respond to chemistry of hard coral. In responding to the hard coral, the macro lost its distasteful taste and was grazed on by herbivores.

The point is that for most reefkeepers we want compatible systems. Can macro and cryptic sponges be in the same system. Of course they can. As the Moody Blues said it so succinctly, it is "œA Question of Balance".
 
I recently read a scientific paper that described the dynamics between a hard coral, herbivore fish and macro algae. When the macro was grown in a meadow of its own kind, it grew distasteful to predatation by herbivores. When a hard coral was put into their proximity, the macro algae chemistry changed to respond to chemistry of hard coral. In responding to the hard coral, the macro lost its distasteful taste and was grazed on by herbivores.

Interesting stuff subsea. do you have a link to that paper
 
As I ponder on the different methods that are represented by three systems with 70 years of life. I think that the reef operator is the one constant that makes each system successful in its own way. What I have seen in Tim’s methods is a strong focus on grazing herbivore control of algae with a consistent water change protocol. I agree about janitors at all levels of maintenance. I do not completely agree that “dilution is the solution to pollution” I support aggressive substrate vacuuming which is a partial water change.

I know little about cryptic zone filtration but I have embraced it for the diversity that it brings into reef keeping. Filter feeders have always caught my attention. I love the fans and feathers.

This is a bad picture of flame scallops. There are two of them behind this sponge filter. They go where they want. I have maintained individuals for up to 18 months.
 

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Red tree sponge

Red tree sponge

I like this filter feeder better.


Don’t know why I can not post picture?
 
Orange Encrusting Sponge

Orange Encrusting Sponge

Now I know why the Greek sponge fishin* fleet was located at Tarpon Springs, Florida. The Gulf of Mexico is high in nutrients. It make sense to see large sponge populations considering the nutrients coming from the many rivers emptying into it with both organic and inorganic nutrients.

Tim,
Here is a Orange Encrusting Sponge that looks red to me. What kind of DOC does it eat?

https://www.live-plants.com/orangesponge.htm
 

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Tim,
I think I may be getting ill. This stuff is beginning to make sense and I am enjoying immersion into it.

Help a brother out. The beautiful Chilli Coral which I received three days ago is in shock. After the first day, I went to bed with Chilli flying all his feathers. When I woke in the morning, like a kid at Christmas, I peaked into tank with a red led flashlight. It was collateral damage. The complete rock wall with ledge for shade had fallen down on Chilli. With no external abrasions, I brushed off detritus on Chilli and remounted in a different place. After 24 hours he showed a few feathers, but not so this morning. He is covered in detritus that seems to stick to outer skin.

Because of the aggressive sand bed maintenance that is ongoing, Detritus is getting stirred up more than normal. In the case of the Sea Apple, he worked overtime to capture detritus as food. Do the feeding requirements of Chilli and Sea Apple contradict each other? Surprisingly, with all the sand bed maintenances on Jaubert Plenum, the refugium is crystal clear with no carry over of detritus. I credit that to the first chamber on this eco-system mud/macro refugium. In looking at the rocks in refugium, there is no detritus to blow off.

IMO, this might be the best hospital for Chilli.
 
. . . Here is a Orange Encrusting Sponge that looks red to me. What kind of DOC does it eat? . . .

I wish we knew that answer to that! (Maybe Steve has some thoughts?) As a group sponges are going to be just like stoney corals and soft corals - some do well in our systems but most are still beyond our ability to keep because we still do not know the specifics of their husbandry. And I suspect it's likely a lot of sponges eat something else besides or in addition to DOC. De Goeij showed certain cryptic sponges in his thesis removed bacterioplankton from the water, what if these are "omnivorus" and some sponge species need specific types of bacterioplankton or DOC?. Just like we can't keep a lot of Acro species because we don't know enough to replicate their environment most of the sponge species are still beyond our reach.

Tim,
I think I may be getting ill. This stuff is beginning to make sense and I am enjoying immersion into it.
:D

. . . The beautiful Chilli Coral which I received three days ago is in shock. . . .
Sorry to hear about that! :( Chilli's are still beyond our reach, it's not one I know any one has been able to grow and frag.
 
Chilli Coral in hospital

Chilli Coral in hospital

Chilli is looking better after 6 hours in cryptic zone refugium
 

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