Cryptic Zone Filtration
- Thread starter mr. bojangsjang
- Start date
fullmonti
now is the time
I just found this thread, & have learned a lot! Thank you one & all, been trying to understand more about the hole zone thing.
The only truly disheartening thing in the hole thread was that RC had banded Steve Tyree because they (who ever they are) didn't like the use of a made up word to describe a filtering system. If this is true it seems extremely intolerant, especially considering how much he could add to the on going learning process.
Any way enough of that. Armed with this new info I'm going to make some changes to my sump, which is just a 65 tank with baffles & some LR now.
The only truly disheartening thing in the hole thread was that RC had banded Steve Tyree because they (who ever they are) didn't like the use of a made up word to describe a filtering system. If this is true it seems extremely intolerant, especially considering how much he could add to the on going learning process.
Any way enough of that. Armed with this new info I'm going to make some changes to my sump, which is just a 65 tank with baffles & some LR now.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I wasn't active on the thread that eventually got Steve banned, so I can't accurately comment on the true nature of the event. He could have been plugging his products & books, or he could have been posting aggressive responses, I don't know. What I do know is what he posted on his site. It isn't enough info to sell everyone on his idea, but it's certainly enough to warrant a discussion and informal experimentation.
Most of his critics have not read his book. While agree you don't have to read every book to have a right to criticize an idea, but it doesn't give you the right to categorically deny the possibility of the idea working. Trying to sell a belief system isn't going to work, but backing up ones claims with scientific facts gives it enough merit for the idea to see light, or darkness in this case. I have read his Sea Scope article, but I haven't gotten around to buying any of his books yet. Anyone care to give a book report out there?
You can read his views on the subject here (click "Environmental Gradient" then "Gradient Criticism"). http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/
Most of his critics have not read his book. While agree you don't have to read every book to have a right to criticize an idea, but it doesn't give you the right to categorically deny the possibility of the idea working. Trying to sell a belief system isn't going to work, but backing up ones claims with scientific facts gives it enough merit for the idea to see light, or darkness in this case. I have read his Sea Scope article, but I haven't gotten around to buying any of his books yet. Anyone care to give a book report out there?
You can read his views on the subject here (click "Environmental Gradient" then "Gradient Criticism"). http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/
fullmonti
now is the time
I'm glad to hear that the Steve thing was probably more than just the word.
I was looking on reefscavengers for the green brittle stars, none now is that where to find them? They did have filter feeding basket star, would that be good critter to add to the mix?
I have 100 micron media bags on incoming water to sump & still get some detritus build up. Should the bags stay on after duplex set up in place or would system need that extra input of material?
I was looking on reefscavengers for the green brittle stars, none now is that where to find them? They did have filter feeding basket star, would that be good critter to add to the mix?
I have 100 micron media bags on incoming water to sump & still get some detritus build up. Should the bags stay on after duplex set up in place or would system need that extra input of material?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The large green starfish aren't the kind of thing a scavenger supplier would have. Those companies deal mostly in reef safe organisms. Some of the most voracious scavengers are the ones that eat corals too, like certain larger hermits and some starfish. You are more likely to find them at a local store that got them in by accident or had ordered them not knowing they eat fish.
Basket stars are virtually impossible to keep, as they need multiple feedings of phytoplankton daily.
Keep your filter bags on line. The target organisms here feed on bacteria, and dissolved organics that will bypass the bags.
Basket stars are virtually impossible to keep, as they need multiple feedings of phytoplankton daily.
Keep your filter bags on line. The target organisms here feed on bacteria, and dissolved organics that will bypass the bags.
Rickyrooz1
Acropora Nut
tagging
S2minute
New member
Criptic system
Criptic system
http://www.saltwatervt.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=948
This is a link to my system pics as it was first setup.
Criptic system
http://www.saltwatervt.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=948
This is a link to my system pics as it was first setup.
cherubfish pair
New member
What are the advantages to a low flow cryptic zone versus a high flow cryptic zone?
What are the advantages to a low flow cryptic zone versus a high flow cryptic zone?
What are the advantages to a low flow cryptic zone versus a high flow cryptic zone?
What are the advantages to a low flow cryptic zone versus a high flow cryptic zone?
What are the advantages to a low flow cryptic zone versus a high flow cryptic zone?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Non-photosynthetic inverts tend to settle more in low flow areas due to the stability of slow flow and availability of food. Plankton prefer sow or no flow so this is a better area for filter feeders. High flow is greta for delivering nutrients and dead food, but these zones are seldom populated by benthic inverts.
The best way to set up the benthic zone is to offer a range of conditions to cater to a broader biodiversity of organisms. Once you find where you are having the best success, replicate those conditions for the rest of the benthic zone.
I have found a trend of fan worms, sponges, and tunicates growing well in the first few sections of eggcrate, then to a lesser extent farther within the structure. I believe that this is simply due to the greater abundance of food in the first few walls. The later eggcrate walls get more diffused flow, and may benefit from a dam & weir system to assure food doesn't bypass across the surface.
Our goal isn't to target feed the benthic zone, but to utilize stray food and nutrients that are in excess in the system.
The best way to set up the benthic zone is to offer a range of conditions to cater to a broader biodiversity of organisms. Once you find where you are having the best success, replicate those conditions for the rest of the benthic zone.
I have found a trend of fan worms, sponges, and tunicates growing well in the first few sections of eggcrate, then to a lesser extent farther within the structure. I believe that this is simply due to the greater abundance of food in the first few walls. The later eggcrate walls get more diffused flow, and may benefit from a dam & weir system to assure food doesn't bypass across the surface.
Our goal isn't to target feed the benthic zone, but to utilize stray food and nutrients that are in excess in the system.
Mr. Winters
New member
i was just wandering round the net and looking for "cryptic zone filtration" cuz i was curious about it and through my minimal research i think that these cryptic zones help a little bit and are present throughout a reef anyways...(under a rock overhang, the low flow dead spot, inside rocks, under corals...etc) i have some hitchiker sponges that have been in low light and gotten massive from when i first got it but would i dedicate a whole tank to this? i would hafta say no... since it is ever present in any reef with appropriate outcroppings and overhangs, caves etc...
though when i set up my 300g tank i may incorporate a small blacked out area in the sump just cuz i think itd be cool.
and according to my calculations you can never have enough live rock. but ill keep most of mine in the light ;P
though when i set up my 300g tank i may incorporate a small blacked out area in the sump just cuz i think itd be cool.
and according to my calculations you can never have enough live rock. but ill keep most of mine in the light ;P
I use a 32 gallon brute covered garbage can stacked full with live rock.Water from a drain at about 400gph enters near the bottom and leaves near the top to another container kept in ambient basement light which is filled with live rock and sand .From there it moves on to the sump and skimmers and then display tank return lines. .
Lots of sponges ,fan worms and other wormlike creatures do quite well in the dark area and ambient area along with pods and other benthic creatures.
It is one part of the filtration I use which also includes: chaeto refugia, a smaller 2nd cryptic zone ,skimmers, gac, gfo, and organic carbon dosing(vodka vinegar).
It certainly provides habitat for herterotrophic benthic fuana , surface area for bacteria as well as contributing to the food chain. I believe the extra surface area and bio activity also help manage nitrogen, phosphate and organic carbon levels in conjunction with the other elements in the system .
Lots of sponges ,fan worms and other wormlike creatures do quite well in the dark area and ambient area along with pods and other benthic creatures.
It is one part of the filtration I use which also includes: chaeto refugia, a smaller 2nd cryptic zone ,skimmers, gac, gfo, and organic carbon dosing(vodka vinegar).
It certainly provides habitat for herterotrophic benthic fuana , surface area for bacteria as well as contributing to the food chain. I believe the extra surface area and bio activity also help manage nitrogen, phosphate and organic carbon levels in conjunction with the other elements in the system .
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Inevitably, every reef tank has these dark corners where flow is dissipated. There are ample cryptic invertebrates on the bottom of corals to seed these areas. Whether or not they are space limited and worthy of their own home in your reef is unknown. There are some nicer sea squirts on the market these days so the idea of a benthic/cryptic zone is becoming more aesthetically pleasing.
Here's another great article from Ken Feldman on bacteria, it's technical stuff, but definitely worth the read.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
Here's another great article from Ken Feldman on bacteria, it's technical stuff, but definitely worth the read.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I think the view album feature is gone or at least hidden
liquidplumber
New member
Any pics on these duplex systems ?
S2minute
New member
Album
Album
just click on my name, then view public profile, then you should see the album in lower right....least i hope so. Privacy settings are for "everyone"
Album
just click on my name, then view public profile, then you should see the album in lower right....least i hope so. Privacy settings are for "everyone"
This thread will just not die! been tagging for a few days and digesting what has been written.
It seems to me like the cryptic system would actually be beneficial for the tank but not nutrient export. If you go back to competitive exclusion and mix it with the concept of natural selection you have to then add a touch of Entropy to fully understand what is going on.
If your system has a limited amount of niches for organisms to occupy and you add a niche (below) which is more readily taken (or out competed for) by one organism over another, You have resources above that become available. (You have increased the amount of resources therefore energy in the system.)
Now forget about nutrients and focus on the energy. Really, the amount of biological processes in your system has increased. Some of the bacteria cycles will increase in size and others may begin to bloom that were previously held back by limited resources.
so 1) you are increasing energy.
2) you are moving potential energy to kinetic energy.
A cryptic zone done correctly can only be a positive as the main design has nothing to do with nutrient export, only the amount of biological process your system can handle.
By adding any type of zone to your system you will influence everything in the system by providing resources that were not previously available. In turn this will effect the amount, rate, and frequency of every selection event in the system. It will allow for migrating from the tank to the cryptic zone and eventually emigration to the tank from the cryptic zone.
What you are really doing is reducing entropy. Entropy being the amount of energy unavailable for work in a closed system. When you open the system by providing new resources you have more available energy
I have not read Steve Tyree's work but from what I have read the big picture has really been left out of his work.
This is really a mini-discussion of evolutionary biology. It's all about gene flow. The right to survive and breed some more. The key to evolution is grandchildren if you have then then you have participated.
All of the pictures of cryptic, benthic or what ever type of zone you call it seem to be successful.
De-nitrators would be a very extreme example of a cryptic zone built for a specific set of organisms, having a very reduced effect on the overall system (watch your alkalinity) yet it's dark and has controlled flow, nothing more, nothing less.
On that note, i have a 10 gallon that will become a new cryptic system and i have to get to work.
Matthew
It seems to me like the cryptic system would actually be beneficial for the tank but not nutrient export. If you go back to competitive exclusion and mix it with the concept of natural selection you have to then add a touch of Entropy to fully understand what is going on.
If your system has a limited amount of niches for organisms to occupy and you add a niche (below) which is more readily taken (or out competed for) by one organism over another, You have resources above that become available. (You have increased the amount of resources therefore energy in the system.)
Now forget about nutrients and focus on the energy. Really, the amount of biological processes in your system has increased. Some of the bacteria cycles will increase in size and others may begin to bloom that were previously held back by limited resources.
so 1) you are increasing energy.
2) you are moving potential energy to kinetic energy.
A cryptic zone done correctly can only be a positive as the main design has nothing to do with nutrient export, only the amount of biological process your system can handle.
By adding any type of zone to your system you will influence everything in the system by providing resources that were not previously available. In turn this will effect the amount, rate, and frequency of every selection event in the system. It will allow for migrating from the tank to the cryptic zone and eventually emigration to the tank from the cryptic zone.
What you are really doing is reducing entropy. Entropy being the amount of energy unavailable for work in a closed system. When you open the system by providing new resources you have more available energy
I have not read Steve Tyree's work but from what I have read the big picture has really been left out of his work.
This is really a mini-discussion of evolutionary biology. It's all about gene flow. The right to survive and breed some more. The key to evolution is grandchildren if you have then then you have participated.
All of the pictures of cryptic, benthic or what ever type of zone you call it seem to be successful.
De-nitrators would be a very extreme example of a cryptic zone built for a specific set of organisms, having a very reduced effect on the overall system (watch your alkalinity) yet it's dark and has controlled flow, nothing more, nothing less.
On that note, i have a 10 gallon that will become a new cryptic system and i have to get to work.
Matthew
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
Hello Again Mr. Wilson!:wavehand:
I have been contemplating setting up a strictly cryptic zone for some time. I have since rebuilt my system from the stage it was when you and I were discussing the benthic style filtration. The tiered-system now consists of a SPS DT, BTA DT, lagoon with mangroves and all the voracious caulerpa no one likes and a semi-cryptic eggcrate-raised floor in the sump supporting some 150lbs of LR.
I had the bug bite for trying a fully cryptic zone with 0-1% lighting by means of a 20L that was my first SW tank some 11 yrs ago (it's always been included somehow in my systems). I built the internal structure with approx. 4 sq.ft of eggcrate similiar to your benthic style structure but MUCH larger. This tank is painted black on three sides and bottom with a piece of black painted acrylic ready for the front (so to still be capable of viewing as it ages). The top is lined with black cutting boards and the water is about to be pumped in.
One problem.... Should I use a filter bag or sheer certain material on the overflow pipe supplying this zone? I regularly blast the detritus in the sump and create a snowstorm after lgihts out to simulate the conditions occurring in the ocean. During this time, the water can become very clowdy as if your stirring a glass of Metamucil or imagine stirring corn meal in water. By this dislodging of the detritus, some surely will make it into the cryptic zone. Since I utilize the BeanAnimal-style overflow, the 'open' flow pipe will supply the cryptic tank. The problem is that I fear this filter bag or window sheer will clog regularly and be a maintenance headache. I stopped using filter bags b/c they started clogging after these snow storm events and causing huge amounts of salt spray around the sump from the water overflowing the bag at 3am.
How 'snow' free should this cryptic zone be? The sponges are exploding in the sump under all the rocks, so I'm a little perplexed with the comments made about larger particulates clogging sponges.
Just wanted to pick your brain or anyone wanting to chime in....:hmm1:
Last edited:
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
If you want clear water in the display then filter bags are great, but if you like a healthy snow globe then don't worry about them. If you are growing sponges specifically, then silicates would be a good additive. The NP pellet craze seems to have died down a bit, but these bacterial driven systems help feed sponges.
It all depends on what your goals are; if you want to grow interesting sponges and tunicates then you can actively supplement accordingly, but if you are just trying to lower nitrate and phosphate through sponge and tunicate growth then it isn't so important to add elements like silicate or iron. Keep in mind, more nutrients will be removed if the other elements are bioavailable to the sponges & squirts.
Is that answer wishy washy enough?
It all depends on what your goals are; if you want to grow interesting sponges and tunicates then you can actively supplement accordingly, but if you are just trying to lower nitrate and phosphate through sponge and tunicate growth then it isn't so important to add elements like silicate or iron. Keep in mind, more nutrients will be removed if the other elements are bioavailable to the sponges & squirts.
Is that answer wishy washy enough?
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